The largest independent, non-commercial, consumer-oriented resource on the Internet for owners, collectors and enthusiasts of fine wristwatches. Online since 1998.
Informational Websites ChronoMaddox -- the legacy of Chuck Maddox OnTheDash -- vintage Heuer website Zowie -- Omega information
Discussion Forums ChronoMaddox Forum Heuer Forum Omega Forum
Counterfeit Watchers ChronoTools Forum ChronoTrader Forum
Vintage Heuer Discussion Forum
The place for discussing 1930-1985 Heuer wristwatches, chronographs and dash-mounted timepieces. Online since May 2003.
OnTheDash Home What's New! Price Guide Chronographs Dash Mounted Collection
Maybe I'm too Picky: Original Mint vs. Restored to Mint
In Response To: If "Mint" is Mint? ()

Scott:

You make some good points, and I will admit to being picky about this. Still, I would like to know whether a watch is in its "original" mint condition or whether it has been restored to mint condition.

Let's take an example: an Monaco or Autavia that was purchased in very good condition, but with moderate scratches and a nicks on the case, and discoloration of the lume, and say a couple of the lume spots missing. The seller has the case refinished and also retouches (or replaces) the lume dots, so that the watch appears to be in mint condition. At a car show, it would be a "100 point" car.

Still, as a prospective buyer, I would want to know that the case has recently been refinished. In other words, this is not the finish from the original manufacturing of the watch, but has been done by a skilled watchmaker / case-refinisher. The watch looks perfect in every way, but this is not the original finish from the factory. Yes, so microscopic bits of the original metal are missing.

Maybe I'm too picky about this, but if I am paying $9,000 for the Monaco or $5,000 for the Siffert, I would like to know who put the finish on the case (and the lume on the dial) -- the factory (in 1972) or a restorer (three weeks ago). This information is easily conveyed by the phrases "original mint" condition or "restored to mint". If the seller has this information, then he should share it with his prospective purchaser. You are correct that in many instances the seller will not have this information, in which case he can only describe what he is seeing.

Keep in mind that we are collecting "history"; if a watch comes with this history, then I am willing to pay a premium for it. But I do get tired of seeing beaters purchased on eBay (say, a Siffert for $2,200), then some months later they are offered as being in "mint" condition (for $4,200) or "NOS" (for $5,500). Yes, the watch has had an $800 servicing / restoration in the interim, but just a few months ago, it was a $2,200 beater. The seller is not offering a watch as it came from the factory, he is offering the skill and good work of his own watchmaker / refinisher. Our collecting world is a bit better, if this information is shared with the next owner.

In my experience, "mint" is rarest of all; we see a lot of "near mint"; we see some "NOS"; etc.

Jeff

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

: Your distinction between NOS and mint makes a great deal of sense,
: but I'm unclear why, in your definition of mint, the history of
: the watch and its parts should play as significant a role as it
: does. If mint is based solely on appearance, then it's unclear
: why a replaced part, provided that it's replaced with a correct
: part, should alter the description.

: To be mint would require that a watch owner know, and be capable of
: proving, the watch's history. I don't know if that's possible,
: unless the owner is the original owner. Other than that, we rely
: on the information provided by the previous seller, which may
: not be accurate or, more significantly, provable. We may know
: what we see, but we can't guarantee that a 40 year old watch
: hasn't had a well done repair over its lifetime.

: It seems to me more important that it have the appearance of a
: watch in perfect condition than every part be provably the
: original.

: Also, since I come to Heuers from the classic car route, we expect
: some restoration to be done over time to maintain a mint
: appearance. Time alone has an impact on appearance. A mint car
: is expected to have had work done to maintain that level of
: concours appearance, and it's not considered a negative. The
: question is whether the restoration was done properly rather
: than whether it was done at all. If one can't tell that
: restoration has been done, and the appearance is no different
: than it would be the day it walked out of the shop, then it
: seems it's as mint as it could be.

: Just my two cents.

Current Position
Chronocentric and zOwie site design and contents (c) Copyright 1998-2005, Derek Ziglar; Copyright 2005-2008, Jeffrey M. Stein. All rights reserved. Use of this web site constitutes acceptance of the terms of use. CONTACT | TERMS OF USE | TRANSLATE