I would tend to agree with Jon (below in the thread) on this matter, red subs are just not that special and there are tens of thousands of them, where is the challenge as a collector? A meters first red sub, still thousands of them, perhaps only a tropical red sub holds any allure for me compared to a Heuer as a collector. A Siffert with box and papers or a Red sub boxed/papers (feet first) at similar money, I'd take a 1163 Siffert all day long. For starters it's a Chrono and as Darren mentions Heuers are cooler and certainly much much rarer.

If we then talk about a 60s/70s Daytona, again thousands of them, available to buy every day of the week, perhaps not quite so easy to find an exceptional one, but Sheartime will always have a couple of minters at $40,000-50,000 (and he is quite fairly priced for the quality on offer), both loose and boxed. For that money I'd way prefer to have a Chronomatic, not even a doubt in my mind. Rolex Paul Newman's have moved into the stratosphere of late, as has anything not quite so readily available in the Rolex world, but there are still significantly more PNs than Chronomatics or PVD Monacos or just about anything on the Heuer grail list and they now cost between £60,0000 (for a quite ordinary pump pusher one to £250,000 and over for the best screw pusher!). Anything Chronomatic, Monaco 1133b, Monaco 1133b Transitional, Monaco PVD, Autavia 2446/3646 Big Subs, Autavia 2446 GMT screwback, Autavia 1163GMT tropical or first/second exec in general with original nice bezel (with no lume), Autavia Siffert, 2nd exec (ridged markers) especially and I could go on and on, but I'd rather have any of these than their "old standard" Rolex priced equivalent.

How about an ordinary sub, hundreds of thousands of them, the same price for a nice 1680 sub as an Orange Boy or a 2nd exec 2446, I know which I'd rather have? I've owned a few subs of all colours and varieties, none holds the allure for me of a nice Heuer. If you are a collector, surely the fun is in the hunt, the discovery, of finding something rare and that you love, with knowledge and persistence (which means being on the look out every day, not just casually) this is far easier to accomplish on Heuer, than on Rolex. I'm not knocking Rolex, they made some great quality watches (although they were no design statement, more a stamen of wealth) but the rare ones are in a different league in comparison to Heuer and it's way more about the money than on Heuer imo.

The same thing is happening on Heuer as within Rolex and most other collectible watch brands and it's natural progression, it's certainly not isolated to us. There are far more people interested in collecting watches and Heuer specifically now than 2-3 years ago and the market has been dry of good pieces for some time, with only a trickle of ncie pieces appearing each month. The watch market has become mature in the sense that collectors now know what the grail watches are and they want to own them. However they cannot find them because they are so rare you may only get the chance to buy one or two a year and unless you aggressively hunt one down, perhaps none each year. In such circumstances, like any market prices rise most on such pieces, it is inevitable, that process cannot be halted, until something materially changes in vintage watch collecting (and I'm not saying that could never happen, but there are no signs of it). All nice things rise in price, I think to expect them not to is unrealistic and show me another market where supply is low where prices have remained static?

The other thing that Darren mentioned is "fame" and he has hit upon an important point, they are now "known" by the wider community and whilst they may not covet a Montreal, they certainly do covet the best Monacos, Autavia and to a slightly less degree Carerra. they know about these watches in ways they did not before and they can see and understand their value and they have decided they are worthy of places in their collections as best of the Heuer breed. You cannot argue with that, it's a fact.

However prices on less desired Heuer watches are still genuinely good value, rising only slowly and I think and there are still many watches that I think represent that, Sifferts look value to me right now. Whilst 1st exec Autavias might be getting out of reach, 2nd and 3rd are still looking good value imo, especially so the true "Rindt" 3rd exec, they are in reality very rare watches (how many half decent 3rd exec do we see each year?) and in no way expensive for a classic looking 60s chrono with a V72 movement.

It's an interesting topic and one that has popped up several times each year over the past few years, I don't see much of a change just that in reality they were undervalued and under appreciated before.

Cheers
R

: I fear there will be a reckoning - i just cant see value in Heuers
: at an asking price approaching that of Red 1680s with papers,
: Daytonas and correct Red Sea Dwellers (these all being 'old
: standards' in the collecting game.)

: I think prices are speculative at best...and therein lies my
: concerns.....

: Discuss.