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Long Post (Excellent, Kav!!) / Short Reply


I read your excellent message very quickly, and will post a very brief reply (because it is getting late):

  • as you suggest, Deception and Dishonesty are the real problems . . . in my view, it is OK for a seller to admit that he has put together a watch or for a collector to buy a put-together watch . . . usually, they can both be happy only if they are fully informed
  • Sharing Accurate Information through this board is the best solution for Heuer enthusiasts . . . whether you like the Frankens or hate them, you deserve to know which is made by Heuer and which is made by someone else . . . then the buyer / bidder can decide whether he wants to own it
  • If a seller knows that it is a franken / fake / broken / whatever, and omits this information from a description, and chooses to hide behind the words "as is", in my opinion, this seller has omitted important information, and ethically, if not legally, this is fraud / deception / bad and people should know about this seller's way of operating.

Let me read your message more carefully and perhaps write more in the light of day.

Thanks for the interesting message.


Sorry about all the RED, but the "Font Color" tag can be habit forming!

: Hello,
: (this is long, sit comfortably, make a coffee,
: open a beer or put a glass of wine,
: depending on the time you read it)

: I have done my share of bashing on
: "Frankenwatches" and their
: sellers, like most of us in this forum. Now
: let me share another point of view.

: First of all, let's try to judge the intrinsic
: value of a Frankenwatch and then talk about
: the trade of such watches.

: For a moment forget the market, forget buying
: and selling. What constitutes the intrinsic
: value of a watch? Is it the sum of the
: production cost of its parts? Is the value
: related to its rarity? To its beauty? To its
: authenticy? To its sentimental baggage? To
: its brand? Is it related to nothing from the
: above? To all of the above? The more I think
: about it, the more I tend to believe that
: the "true" value of a watch has
: many similarities with quantum theory: The
: observer is of paramount importance. He
: decides. No absolutes. Maybe not only
: beauty, but even intrinsic value " is
: in the eye of the beholder ".

: People spend money to change parts of their
: cars and void manufacturers guarantee,
: because they prefer it that way (it is not
: always the case of improving performance).
: Are these Frankencars? Probably. Are they
: willingly hurting the value of their cars?
: Probably not. TO THEM their
: "Frankencar" is more valuable than
: the original car. Hardcore Panerai (and
: other brands) collectors are sending their
: newly purchased watches to PVD firms for a
: black finish. I'm guilty of liking the
: "frankenbezel" of the pictured
: Autavia more than the original bezel.

: So, at least for me a frankenwatch is not by
: definition a lower value watch. I like to
: look at them on a case by case basis. This
: kind of thinking is shared by some
: collectors who (like Jeff has already
: pointed out) spend good money on
: franken/fake oversized Heuer chronographs,
: knowing exactly what they are and what they
: are not. Of course for the typical collector
: who likes his watches to be like they were
: designed to be, a frankenwatch is of very
: low value.

: Now let's go to the marketplace. How ethical is
: it to sell frankenwatches? Nah, let's leave
: ethics out of it, let's simplify it. How
: "bad" is it to sell
: frankenwatches? I don't thing it is a bad
: thing to sell them. What I thing is bad is
: MISLEADING buyers. If you knowingly tell a
: lie to the buyer you are misleading him. But
: there is still a lot of gray area.

: There are many vintage watch sellers sell their
: watches as "AS IS" and they shout
: "as questions first". They are
: telling you in a way: "here's the
: watch, here are a few facts about it, what
: you see is what you get, no more no
: less." What if they don't mention
: something they know but the buyer hasn't
: asked about? What if they really don't know
: that they are selling a frankenwatch?

: If someone is casually looking for a watch and
: happen to like a frankenwatch, I don't see
: why he should not buy it. Should he know
: that it has been "put together"?
: Does he really care?

: I'm not taking any sides here. I have no reason
: to defend any frankenwatch sellers. I'm just
: asking questions. Questions that have risen
: from the situation I'm in right now.
: Sometime ago, I have bought a
: "frankenwatch". The watch had the
: wrong bezel. Now I plan to change its bezel
: and although I can put the right bezel I
: plan to put a different bezel I like more...
: Can anyone please help me on how to change
: the bezel on my 11630 Autavia? (such a long
: post just to ask a silly question ;-)

: .
: .
: .
: .

: (this is NOT my watch, but another frankenbezel
: Autavia I like)

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