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Unfortunately, There Isn't Much Posted By: Scott Date: 12/1/07 11:06 GMT
In Response To: I can't advise you, but here's what I'd do... (Chicagoland Chuck Maddox) OK, I'm going to have to put on my moderator's cap here for a moment in a moment.
It's not that Scott has done _anything_ wrong but I need to make clear my position and make sure it's understood both as a regular participant here and also as a moderator. Until I put on my moderator's cap [and that's exactly how I will type it when I switch to it] consider me to be just speaking as Chicagoland Chuck Maddox, Chronograph enthusiast and participant.
OK?
One of the unfortunate aspects of dealing with auctions across international borders is that the parties rely in the auction and payment sites internal mechanisms for protection. Other than posting about it to warn others, there are few other options. Agreed, that's true. International transactions are more perilious than "in-country" or, what's the word... Ah! Intra-national transactions. Because there are two countries laws and customs [both the "Norms" and "Tarrif" definition of Customs] in play. With mutual middle ground, like the eBay umbrella of auction sites which is setup with international transaction support available, there is more protection than in other auction sites which are regional or national.
And private transactions, which many people seem to prefer over eBay, offer little recourse at all.
It doesn't matter what the legalities are, since you can't sue a German seller in the United States and it's impractical to sue in Germany. If the auction site won't help, then game over. As an attorney, my advice would be to put it behind you if Rolf won't be reasonable. Of course, Jeff may differ, in which case I defer. Assuming that Rolf is the seller offering the piece on the .ch site. He may well be [and you may know that he is], but I don't know that nor am I concluding that.
And unless we know Rolf to be the same person, let's not assume he is.
I too was interested in that Siffert, as I have been looking for one (only 1 son) for a while. But I wasn't comfortable with the auction site since my German/French was a little too rusty to understand what was being said, and as much as I liked the watch, the potential for misunderstanding was far too great. Bablefish is an excellent resource for translations. You may wish to bookmark it and the also excellent FXTop Currency Exchange page...
As for the ridiculously high packing costs, you probably nailed the problem. A seller uncomfortable with shipping a watch internationally?
The gray area here is that, as I read it, the seller didn't state explicitly that the watch was or wasn't available for purchase internationally, nor what shipping costs would be if someone outside of Switzerland wished to buy it.
Now if Rolf is the same person who offered the watch on the Ricardo.ch site and promoted it's being available in ChronoTrader, that's a different thing.
I'm sorry to hear that Rolf basically screwed you, and sorrier still to say that there's little you can do except to let the rest of us know not to do business with Rolf or that auction site). OK, remember above when I said I'd have to put on my moderator's cap? OK, [sound of ruffling hair] I'm putting on my moderator's cap [in this color type]:
OK, unless I'm missing something here, no one has really been "Screwed" in this situation. Unless I'm missing something Andy isn't out any money, and the seller still has his watch. Neither is anything other than "Whole". Neither party is "out" anything other than time.
As a moderator, I have to remain at least somewhat neutral and moderate when it comes to certain situations. I can have my own opinions and sympathies, but I have to remain neutral and impartial enough that: - I can look at myself in the mirror and still feel I'm doing the job right,
- Jeff is satisfied I'm doing the job right,
- and all of the participants feel that these forums are fair and reasonably moderated.
At this point, for all I know, Rolf is merely a person who saw a Siffert Styled Autavia on the Ricardo.ch site and posted a note about it on ChronoTrader. If that is the case he hasn't done anything wrong.
On the other hand, if Rolf is the seller [or associated with the seller] of the item listed on Ricardo.ch site and he posted a note about it on ChronoTrader, it does look very similar to a "Bait and Switch" type situation, which I doubt any of us are interested in seeing perpetrated. As a moderator, I would not like having such tactics being employed on a site I'm associated with.
In any case, one can feel free to post truthfully about what's transpired. If Andy, the bidder and potential buyer/owner, wishes he can post a caution about attempting to do business with Ricardo.ch [or other sites [eBay, specific eTailor's, etc.]] but they get to rebut such posts.
Regardless of any personal sympathies I may have, I have to be neutral in this regard.
Perhaps Rolf will reconsider if he learns that his actions are condemned by others here and that no one will buy from him if he tries to gouge like this. I am concerned that Rolf may have little or no link to the seller on Ricardo.ch. I don't believe that conclusions and namecalling is called for at this point. Andy's made his side public, if Rolf wishes to present his side of things, that's fine too.
If Rolf is the seller on Ricardo.ch then a different set of thoughts come into play.
Ok, I'm taking off my moderator's cap because the rest of what I have to say shouldn't necessarily be taken as gosphel spoken from a moderator speaking on policy. Back to "Chicagoland Chuck Maddox" cap comin' off:
Whew! That's better. I don't like having to put on that cap, but sometimes it's beneficial and necessary, and that comes with the territory.
I'd love to hear Rolf's and the seller [if the seller is indeed a different person] to hear their side of the story. That's only fair.
In looking at the guidelines of ChronoTrader. I see the following passages [the bold text is from the guidelines, I'll underline points I consider important in this context]: Rules: Postings must be an ad announcing an intent to sell, buy or trade. Full item description and photo(s) must be posted within the message here, not as links to other websites. Links to online auctions and other sites: Links to online auctions, dealer sites or other listings of items are permitted, but you should be careful to ensure that such listings will comply with our other ChronoTrader Policies. In addition, we request that sellers linking to online auctions or listings offer some benefit or accomodation to ChronoTrader readers (for example, some discount or an undertaking to end an auction early, to keep a watch "in the family"). Photos must be of the actual item for sale in its present condition. No counterfeit or replica products. No post for the same item may be repeated within 7 days, except to lower the asking price. Commercial dealers are limited to three unique posts per day. [More...]
And there is a bunch [More...] which isn't especially germane to our dialog...
At this point we have no verbage about the international nature of Chronocentric/OTD... We have participants from many countries [not just the USA], in fact one of our moderators is a Brit living in Germany.
Since Chronocentric/Chronotrader is a "forum without borders" perhaps we [meaning Jeff, myself and the C/OTD team] need to add verbage to explicitly emphasize the international nature of the clientle. For if the post made about the Ricardo.ch offering made in ChronoTrader was made by the owner of the watch, it is very difficult for me to see how charging 25x the Swiss shipping cost to ship the watch to the UK is consistent with: "sellers linking to online auctions or listings offer some benefit or accomodation to ChronoTrader readers (for example, some discount or an undertaking to end an auction early, to keep a watch "in the family")."
I would love for Rolf to clear things up from his viewpoint.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that as a moderator stating policy, I'm saying it as a participant [who happens to be a moderator] saying that perhaps C/OTD management need to be more specific in our policies and terms. Perhaps we need to add verbage something along the lines of "unless specifically stated otherwise, all transactions are assumed to be available for purchase internationally with reasonable shipping and packing costs" or something along those lines. I have no problem with folks wishing to only offer items in their own country, but they should state those restraints up front.
Scott Scott, Andy, Bruce and yes Rolf... and anyone else reading along this far... I'm sorry I got so long-winded on everyone, but it all needed to be said publically.
I'm not mad at anyone, I don't begrudge anyone for the time this has taken this morning. But I want to do [or see done] what needs to be done to minimize the chances of problems like this occuring in the future. It is important for the viability of Chronotrader and it's potential growth that it be the best venue it can be. Minimizing less than optimal experiences, when practical, is in the best interest of all.
Thank you for your time! |
