Posted By: jhb [Date: 8/9/04 15:48 GMT] you should have probably......

In Response To: Seller claims 100% original. Then he should prove (Chicagoland Chuck Maddox)

added the fact that you are not the type to jump to conclusions either.

Well, I will form conclusions and am more than willing to share them. However, I do so on the basis of my experience, knowledge and research. And usually can lay hands on links pictures and people to support my conclusions in a rather rapid fashion. I also am pretty good about including wiggle words (like looks, appears, should, possibly, etc.) to leave enough room to maintain an open mind about the discussion.

In this case I said "Don't think Orfina/IWC/Eterna ever shipped that 1." -- The wiggle word here is think. As in ,,I don't believe,,... I could be wrong. I didn't say: ,,Orfina/IWC/Eterna never made that one.,, which is an absolute statement, but rather expressed an opinion.

Another example of "wiggle words" is the sentence:"Nope, it is not in my assessment a genuine original watch." ... The key wiggle words here are 'in my assessment'. If I had omitted those words, the sentence would be: ,,Nope, it is not a genuine original watch.,, which would have been a statement. As it was, I included those words and instead of making a statement, I stated an opinion. Two very different things.

However, when I do make an absolute statement, like "this watch is not genuine (Orfina, IWC or Eterna) Porsche Design chronograph.", yeah... like one of those... I am so certain of my footing/foundation (which I will liken to wearing Velcro Slippers on Velcro superglued to Granite) that not only do I have the information to backup my statements, I typically can back them up in such a manner not only to be so compelling to command assent, but also so obviously that the individual/group doing the questioning looks a bit silly for pressing the point. Which has a tendency to cheese them off, I've observed.

I'll note in my original posting on this topic Don't think Orfina/IWC/Eterna ever shipped that 1. I stated: "Um, no... No, it does not sport a Lemania 5012 movement. It sports a 5100 Lemania movement. [paragraph break] The 5012 movement is similar to the 5100 with the exception that the 12 o'clock register is not utilized for a 24-Hour indication as seen on this example which you pictured:

"

It turns out that was not entirely correct. How so? It turns out the movement in this watch is some sort of Franken/Hybrid of 5012 dataplate and 5100 innards... However, I didn't have any movement picture at the time this post was made prior to Reza's posting of the caseback and movement shot) so I had no way of knowing the hidden nature of the movement in this watch. I can assure you that utilizing a strict original 5012 movement with this watch would result in a non-functional 12 o'clock 24-hour register and not provide for a mounting pinion for the hand associated with that sub-dial.

If information is withheld from me, it may and sometimes does effect the accuracy of my opinions and statements. In the Information Technology industry this is known as G.I.G.O. or Garbage In Garbage Out. People who post queries will get the best assessment I can give to the best of my ability that their input allows. I may not be able to see through dials or casebacks to see if there is any "homework" being used, and I may be tripped up by trick questions. Few people on the web would have pointed this situation out before someone else called attention to it. I do. I'm different.

now myself i'll admit, i'm the type to very quickly jump to conclusions based on even a shred of evidence or even a gut feeling.

Oh, I might jump to a ,,near-conclusion,, but I always try to keep my statements in the form of an opinion with plenty of wiggle words until I really have a good sense of my footing/traction/foundation to express a conclusion. Even on gut feelings.

you Mr. maddox are not this type of person and from what i've have seen have never jumped to a conclusion based on a gut feeling.

If you lock yourself into a statement and/or a conclusion you have eliminated from your mind options/potentials/possibilities. Like in Basketball, when you've taken the ball in two hands, you have to pick a pivot foot and your options are limited... You can pass, pivot, shoot or call a time out, you can no longer move or you'll turn the ball over...

of course it would have looked bad to state this yourself, so i did it for you.!

Once you've committed to a statement, like two-handing a Basketball, you've eliminated a certain number of your options... I am typically (unless very pressed by multi-tasking and or fatigue) very careful about the words I choose... If I make statements, I usually can back them up well. If I sound arrogant or assinine in my statements, I can back them up real well. Watch out!

Here's an additional level of depth that I occasionally employ in my posts... You'll note that sometimes I post in the form of:

Posted By: jhb [Date: 8/9/04 15:48 GMT] you should have probably......

You ever wonder why I go to the trouble of doing that formatting? There's a reason... I know from experience that people have the habit of taking me to task on my opinions and statements. Why? I don't know I understand it, but people do. And I've learned that sooner or later I'll likely be called upon to cite the reasons/sources of my statements/opinions either in this forum, another forum or in an email... I find that when I need to quote or include a passage of text in a post in the future, having that "Posted By: jhb [Date: 8/9/04 15:48 GMT]" already formatted and at the beginning of a quotation really saves a lot of time, and adds to the impact of my reply. Because I can pull and cite information in an extremely speedy fashion with the name of the person who posted it and the time/date stamp, it adds a certain additional level of detail to the citation. I also go to the trouble to format many of my posts in HTML with the complete text included and formatted so that I may comment in context and accurately. Few other people go to this trouble, but I find it saves time in the long run, and doesn't take that much additional time (I've become fairly quick at doing it).

I'll leave you with one last additional level of depth that I sometimes include in order to make my life easier. I will often insert an odd or unusual word, name or phrase like "as scarce as Tri-Planes were in the skies above Europe in 1918" ... You ever wonder about that? Well, the depth is that when I want to find that post, I sit back and think ,I think I used the word ''Tri-Plane'' in that post, do a search, and out of 6,000+ posts in the past two years, there are three hits. Then I can quickly find the post I'm interested in... Makes my life easier, don't it?

I should point out that few people on the web would "expose" their methods of wording things in such detail in a public forum. I have numerious times, usually over at TZ's Omega forum, but I have elsewhere. I'm open source. I share my knowledge and host it for anyone who can access the internet to view. I find it to be very powerful.

Basically, you now have an idea at a slightly deeper level(s) I'm utilizing with some/many of my posts. If you look for these levels you will find them in many instances in my longer posts. I'm a creature of habit and reasonably consistant if the post isn't a quick answered one, even if I'm in a goofy mood (and sometimes especially because I'm in a goofy mood). So if you see an odd reference to R. Lee Ermey, Bobby Fischer or an obscure pop-culture reference, there may be a reason why I included it... Besides, colorful language and references are FUN!

-- Chuck