zOwie Omega Discussion Forum

c.3301 vs c.1164 Posted By: Conrad Date: 1/2/06 18:45 GMT

In Response To: more about the poljot 3133 (georges zaslavsky)

Gentlemen:

I take it from you reply that you do not think highly of all the 77XXs.

I think it is safe to say that Georges doesn't think especially highly of any Valjoux movement. I think he has varying opinions of various movements... I think he is less critical, in general, of the Valjoux 72 and possibily the 7750 than other Valjoux movements.

Since you said "Gentlemen", I will assume that you are addressing this to the larger "Peanut Gallery" and not just to Georges...

Personally, I generally prefer the Lemania c.1873, and the earlier Lemania movement, most popularly known as the Omega 27CHRO-C12, c.321, which is now known as the Lemania 2310 and 2320. However, from my personal experience owning a wide variety of v.72 variations (v.72, 72C, 721, 723, 724, 726, 728, 88) that there is little to no difference in terms of day-to-day use between the Lemania movements and their Valjoux competitors. I personally feel the c.321 (Lemania 23x0) is a better looking movement and looks to be more robustly built than the v.72, although I prefer the appearance of the v.72 over the trapezoid bridge of the Lemania 1873). However, to my knowledge the c.321 was never sold in chronometre grade trim, at least not in any great quantity, while the v.72 was offered for many many years in COSC trim by Rolex, where it was considered a solid movement. Many people will point to the NASA tests where the Lemania powered Omega beat Valjoux powered Rolex and Longines chronographs... However, the failures that caused the disqualification(s) of the Rolex and Longines, namely warped hands and a crystal disengagement, were not the fault of the movement inside the watch, and an Omega Speedmaster lost a crystal during the Apollo 15 mission.

As for the 7750... Similarly to my feelings above, I prefer the Lemania 5100 over the Valjoux (and now ETA)7750. I diverge from Georges on the Lemania 134x (Omegac. 1040, 1041) movement which Georges thinks noteably more highly about than I do. It's not so much I don't think it's a good movement, it is, but I don't feel it's the do all be all, as Georges does. Georges in the past has not seemed to think highly of the 7750, and he has his reasons... Reading the thread below is probably more enlightening than me trying to summarize it. In fact this much older discussion I had with Georges several years back is probably good ground to cover...

Georges has said "the valjoux 7750 is synonym of mass produced cheap and unreliable chronograph movement as compared to piguet and Lemania which are regarded and considered the very top of the range quality movements alongwith the zenith el primero."

Which I stridently disagree with. Is the 7750 mass produced, yes, I agree that it is a movement that is designed with mass production and efficient economies of scale that comes with such production methods in mind. However to call the 7750 a synonym of "unreliable chronograph movement as compared to the Piguet" is laughable. If there has been any movement introduced in the past, I don't know... 30+ years that has a reputation for ¶¡$$-poor reliability it's Piguet movements in the Piguet based Omega c.33xx, and even the earlier Piguet c.1185 (and I discuss this note in this posting)...

As for my feelings on the Valjoux 7750, I have said "it's popular to dislike the 7750, but owning at least a dozen or two of them hasn't proven them to be substantially less reliable, durable or accurate than the Lemania's. Personally, I too prefer the Lemania over the Valjoux competition, but Valjoux 7750 is competition, good competition and has been so for the better part of 30 years...". So again, if given a choice between two watches that are identical other than the movement: Lemania 5100 or Valjoux 7750, I'd likely choose the 5100 over the 7750, but that doesn't mean the 7750 is a bad movement, just not my first preference.

I am considering returning a new seamaster2294. 52.00 for another seamaster I have wanted for some time...the 2296.80.00.

I think I prefer the polished and painted Rose Gold bezel of the earlier 2296.80.00 over the bead blasted and un-embossed look of the later 2294.52.00, but that's my personal value judgement.

Both watches look similar

The case is similar, that's about it. Dial layout is different (because of the movement), bezel, bracelet, etc are different.

however the movement in the 229452 is a c.3301 and the movement of the 229680 is the c.1154/64 (based on Valjoux 7750).

Yup...

Which watch has the better quality movement?

That's nearly impossible to answer because every person will have a different opinion as to what "better quality" means.

There are buckets and barrels of people who will tell you the Piguet movement is a higher quality movement. It is not as mass produced, much more labor intensive assembly than the Valjoux based 7750) and offers both old-world Column-wheel activation and new idea innovative features (and I don't know them off the top of my head). However, the Piguet based movements have been failing in users hands left and right. There have been dozens of reports over at TZ's Omega forum since their introduction back in late 2001/early 2002 epoch.

It's the old Ferrari vs. Ford quality argument... Yes, the Ferrari is typically a more sohpisticated powerplant, handmade, hand tuned to a high standard, and it will also be far more likely to spend a lot of time in the shop than a mass produced assembly line grade Ford.

Personally, for me, a sophisticated movement that is in the shop for remedial repairs, or that I'm in fear of it's immenent failure is not better quality in my opinion. Other people do not feel the same way.

You'll have to make your own judgement.

Also, speaking as a collector which watch would you rather have?

A (potential/actual) Hangar-queen movement is not desireable to me. The 2296.80.00 is a discontinued model, If you think you'll ever want one, you might want to grab it while you can. You might not get another chance.

Personally, I'd rather have the tried, tested and true v.7750 based model.

But that's just me...

Make your own decision based on your own needs/wants/viewpoint(s). For you'll have to live with your decision, not me.

I think I might be asking the same question but I am very interested to hear your thoughts.

You are, but now you have...

Conrad

Only you can answer the question of what's best for yourself... Once again, I'd suggest you read all of the threads in the link I posted in my first reply to you before you get serious about a c.33xx movement watch. There have been fewer reports as of late, but you would have little or no guarentee of getting an example that won't have problems.

On the other hand, one might have problems with a 7750 based Seamaster, but there seems to be a lot fewer reports of problems with those models than thec. 33xx's.

It's your money, your decision. If you prefer thec. 33xx (for whatever reason) that's your decision, just be informed as to that movement's history...

-- Chuck