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I am nost astonished by Ebay and more thaughts Posted By: georges zaslavsky Date: 5/5/06 11:36 GMT
In Response To: Now I'm gutted... :-( (SteveW62)
Hi Steve
I have checked three years ago bidjan's website where he proposed one for $1800 but with a very ridiculous warranty of 3 months. Um... Bijan's offered 120-day (that's 4 month) warrantee's for at least the last 5 years. And what warrantee do other internet used watch sellers offer? 3-Day right of return if you're lucky?
In 2005 I rechecked the same item and saw its price at $3000!!! Actually, I was poised to pounce on that 120m/440ft example about that time and it disappeared off of Bijan's site. So I started elsewhere and ended up with my example off of eBay which cost me about $1,200 with delivery... My example, which is in pretty rough condition compared to the one Bijan had, needs the ministrations of Omega Bienne as it's crown has to be forceably held out under tension to set the time. And we both know that Omega Lancaster or New Jersey is not up to any serious work.  Ironically a couple of months after I settled for the watch I have, a 120/440 appeared again on Bijan's site... I don't know if it was the same watch, or a different one, they look the same, but the asking price was still in the $1,795-1,995 price range. If I had had the money and the inclination at the time, I probably should have bought that one as well and either kept my ebay purchase for spares or resold it. I figure I'd have a $600-1,000 repair bill at Bienne should I send it there. Should I go ahead and do that? I'll have to wait until such time I feel comfortable enough with my bank account to pull the trigger on sending it.
$3000 for a watch with only a three months warranty FOUR month in the case of Bijan... And the price on his site is his _asking_ price. Only once have I gone to Bijan and said "I want X" how do you want me to pay (that was for the Benetone Bullhead (ugly) chronograph)... Most of the time I call Bijan and say "What's the best price you can give me on this one?"... That's what I've done with my 1947 Omega chronograph, Anakin and my c.911 Flightmaster which came from Bijan...
Those prices aren't carved in stone...
and I am not even sure it was correctly serviced. I doubt that Bijan would offer a four month warrantee on a watch that hadn't been serviced. It is a better warrantee that most, if not all, vintage internet sites offer.
I also have seen one at Timeman unserviced and at $2500 with no warranty!!!! I can't speak for Andy's product, as I can't even get his site to respond this morning...
Those prices are irrealistic seriously especially when a watch is not serviced Again, I am not certain you can state authoritatively that either of those examples have not been serviced. I would suspect that Bijan's has been either serviced or at the very least inspected by a watchmaker prior to being offered with a warrantee, again I can't speak for Andy's example, or even pull it up to look at it at this point... and I don't know Andy that well. We've had a few email threads but I haven't done business with him.
As for the price elevation of the 120m/440ft in the past couple of years... I'm not certain I can as easily explain the rise of these values as I am able to point to a cause and effect on other watches... I'm not surprised that Speedmaster and Heuer prices have increased... With the efforts of myself, Steve, Jeff Stein (over on the Heuer side) as more information is posted and made available for those watches, it's only natural that their value increases as demand mounts and desirable examples are snapped up. However, with the exception of Eric So's page on the 176.004 (which hasn't been updated in nearly five years) and Steve's inclusion of the 176.004 on his page on Omega Pilot Line watches, I haven't written a page on the 120m/440ft, so I can't point my finger at myself like I can with many other models (Like Darth and Anakin, for example) as I don't have a page on this model.
About the only thing I've done is post why I think this model is a very significant model in Omega lore: - First Omega Chronograph to have a true diver's bezel.
- [yes, the bullhead, flightmaster and the 145.019 had an undercrystal rotatable bezel, but not a divers bezel]
- First Omega Chronograph with a screw down crown.
- First Omega to have a water resistance rating greater than 60m.
- Is legitimately considered to be the TRUE Seamonster and inspiration for the SeMPC.
nor in perfect condition not the smallest ding, scar and original dial and hands with original lume I, for one, am a collector who is less enthralled with perfection in my vintage watches than some are. When I see a "perfect condition" 30, 45, 50 year old watch, I start getting sceptical and start wondering what's been replaced on the watch to make it look so perfect. One wouldn't expect Joan Rivers, Joan Collins (gotta get off the Joan's!), Elke Sommers, Sophia Loren, Bridget Bardot to appear exactly as they did in the late 1960's or early 1970's without some sort of plastic surgery, I feel it's not necessarily realistic to expect a watch to have borne the brunt of time with similar grace.
Certainly there are examples of watches "lost in the back of a safe", or watches given as gifts that were never worn and lived their life in a desk or dresser drawer, but those are by far the exceptions and not the norm.
and not warrantied. Again, Bijan's wares _are_ warranted.
It is like restoring a car it will cost you more to restore and or repair a very average condition car than buying one in excellent condition, serviced and warrantied. I also believe it will prove very difficult for you to locate an unrestored perfect condition used car from that era with a warrantee the likes you suggest. Especially at the prices you seem to expect for a vintage 120m/440ft Seamaster Chronograph. In fact the prices of period muscle cars (after all, a 176.004 is a Muscle watch!) at auction have recently gone through the roof (again)...
Of course with cars, and I just dropped close to $7k into a 1957 T-Bird [so I know], there is no limit to what one can spend on a vintage car to get it to a level one wants...  - [back on the road after 12 years... My cousin Brian at the wheel... The fellow taking pictures is Bert Eisenhower, the editor of the Chicagoland Thunderbird Club Newsletter For something like 30-35 years!) My current ride (a 1998 Explorer Eddie Bauer) for another month or so, is in the background]
-
- And that's without a paint job or about $2-3k of 'elective' mechanical/electrical work for items like Radio, backup lights, horn, etc.
Time spent inspecting a vintage car prior to purchase is typically well invested. It is a valid point that it's often quicker, easier and less costly overall to spend more money on a better example than it is to purchase a project.
Now about Ebay,it is a buy at your own risk game,most of the items have very often patined dials, [In my best Dino Martin voice] Don't be knockin' patina, baby! ... graceful patina is nice and speaks better for the originality of a vintage piece than a lack of flaws...
unserviced movements (sometimes wrong movements),no warranty, NAWCC members offer 3 day return policies, but yeah...
unoriginal bracelet and buckles Sometimes, if they even offer bracelets/buckles with the watches they sell...
and sometimes you can have the baddest surprise like a ruin to restore. True, and I've been far luckier than most.
From an experience that happened to a friend who baught a datejust from a power seller and got burned. Ask David DeVos about the seller who [allegedly] had his car (with dozens of vintage watches) stolen just after receiving the money for those watches via eBay auctions. Ironically, I was the 1st and 2nd runner up on a pair of Universal Genevé chronographs... I came so close to being burned big time on that one. And I had done business twice with the same seller in the past with no issues...
You can never tell...
I'm not saying the morgage was rubbing against the insurance policy causing spontanious combustion, but some people would retort that where there's smoke there is fire... Sigh...
It taught me some good things that not all people who are calling themselves "professionals" are really professionnals. Nope, in fact all "Professional" really means is that they do it for a lively hood, not that they are any good at it.
It's also why I only call myself a student of the topic at hand, not only is it more accurate, it's a helluva lot less pompous!
They are not all proposing a real customer service refund policy I don't call that customer service), Nope, most don't.
no warranty (very often the item is sold in as is condition) ... most often...
and they are not watchmakers but collectors. Collectors buy and sell from collectors all the time. In fact, I'd trust most collectors more than most "professional"s...
An amateur however good he might be will never be considered as a true profesional. That's ok... Steve McQueen was never considered a true professional driver, nearly won Sebring in 1970 as a movie star actor driving as a lark.
Few of us here will ever seriously consider ourselves anything more than collectors/enthusiasts/fans or enlightened students. I've yet to make dollar one in this hobby [haven't been paid yet for the articles I've co-written with Jeff] and I haven't sold any watch at a profit to myself yet. So I'm not a professional "True" or not.
and I'm not worried about that.
Those are my thaughts and everyone can agree or disagree with them. (to take with two grains of salt) But everybody is entitled to my opinion!
regards and have a nice day
georges Cheers and good hunting!
-- Chuck |
