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Why so emotional? ¿Moi? Just tellin' it like it is...
Posted By: Felix
Date: 9/27/06 06:30 GMT
In Response To: Saddened, Disappointed, but not terribly surprised (Chicagoland Chuck Maddox)
Dear Chuck
Wow. This was very exhaustive. It wasn't my intent to tucker anyone out. My reply to John was not one of my lengthier posts in Omega forums...
Thanks for your clarifications. Nevertheless I don't agree with you in numerous aspects. That's your privilege. Opinions are like belly buttons... Everyone has one.
- Problems with 33xx are solved (that's why they can promote their brand with this product without risk) Where have you been? New problem reports with 33xx's are reported on a pace of one every 4-8 weeks, about the same rate as since early 2004. Additionally, nearly every one of these problem reports are the 4 identified (by Omega Flaws): 1) Minute Counter Failure, 2) start/stop pusher not functioning, 3 chronograph hand does not reset properly to zero, 4 basic timekeeping movement may also stop working. Additionally, a number of reports of the Rotor disengaging from the movement failing to wind the watch also have occurred.
That these problems continue to be reported, in new models released within the past year, indicates that these problems with the 33xx are not solved.
- Problems with 1120 are solved too I don't recall mentioning the 1120 in my post... [search search search] nope I didn't... As far as that goes, I didn't mention the c.33xx's either in my post...
I suspect the problems Omega experienced with the 1120 are now well in hand.
- Customer service has improved lately and will further improve in the future I've seen no improvement in customer service. Vintage Information is a shadow of what it once was. The incident where a watch returned for repairs came back with new scratches on the case and crystal is the rule, not the exception... ...and like the incident where a customer's bracelet was installed upside down, it's happened within the last year. Communications with customer support is often a frustrating experience when you ask three different people at Omega what the recommended service interval is for a Co-Axial you'll get three different answers. Customers are blamed for known flaws with the movements.
I am well aware that other competing firms also have unsatisfied customers when it comes to customer service. However, not to the depth and breadth of Omega's. Frankly put, Omega's customer service, in many cases, is not only substandard to it's immediate competitors in the Swiss Luxury watch, it's as bad or worse than where Omega's customer service was 6-7 years ago.
- Omega is not perfect, no company is perfect. Change is happening everywhere. I too am unaware of a perfect company.
Change is happening everywhere: Breitling is COSC certifying every last one of their movements. TAG-Heuer is using an El-Primero base movement in a number of models. Additionally, TAG-Heuer has developed a pair of very innovative movements in their new Belt-driven movement and their 1/100th second Calibre 360 movement. Rolex developed their first chronograph movement and deployed it successfully after correcting early production flaw that was easily caught because they issued the watch in small limited numbers before starting unlimited production.
Those are some of the good changes. A couple of changes that aren't so highly thought of... Ventura is ceasing production of it's mechanical watches to concentrate on Quartz models. Zenith, while now available new in the US for the first time in decades has steeply raised their prices and are producing some of the ugliest watches available anywhere:
Kobald too has drastically increased their prices. Previously, they offered watches at priced competitive to Sinn, Tutima, Fortis and the like. Then they increased their prices, now they offer the same basic watches at price on par with the higher priced Omega offerings.
"10, 15, 20 years from now, people in the watch community will talk of Omega the same way that Heuer and TAG-Heuer are today". Actually here is the full quote, in context:“The way things are going, 10, 15, 20 years from now, people in the watch community will talk of Omega the same way that Heuer and TAG-Heuer are today.”
I really don't think so. Again you're entitled to hold your own opinion.
However, regular current model Omega customers are already turning away from current production in favor of Vintage models. Are discussions of "Pre-upscale attempt" vs. "Post-upscale attempt" Omega's, just like Fender Stratocaster collectors talk about "Pre-CBS" models, far behind?
This would happen if they didn't change their mass-product- and get-fair-price-image by adjusting the number of their outlets. It is likely to happen if they continue to delude themselves into thinking that Boutique showrooms, and discontinuing popular full-service authorized dealerships will improve their image, while doing nothing about Gray Market sales or the Authorized Dealers which enable Gray Marketeers, and when far too many sales people have no idea about the features of the products they are selling and why one would want to purchase an Omega instead of a Tissot, or Swiss Army or Seiko.
This doesn't mean, that they are going to limit this number by 50% but perhaps by 20% (insider information). ¿ “Insider Information” ?
Why don't they concentrate their efforts on the small-volume dealers who in order to meet their sales allotments, sell off their Omega stock to the Sam's Club's, Costco's and other Gray Market dealers in order to maintain their AD status?
There is a well known scam in the US (and I'd assume anywhere there are "Big Box" wholesale buying clubs which sell Gray-Market Omegas... What a crook will do, is buy a genuine Omega watch (say a Bond Seamaster), and a few days later return a fake Bond Seamaster they bought off of an auction site, or a counterfeiter in China or on the street. The return policy of these stores are so liberal, and the sales people... Well, they meet the three main requirements of employment: a) shows up for work when scheduled, b doesn't steal from the company, c) will work for what is offered in wages. In other words they have little or no training on how to spot a fake Omega (or Rolex, etc.)... So the sales person puts the watch back on display, and a couple of days or a week or two, someone will buy the fake Omega assuming it's a genuine one.
Why isn't Omega concentrating on those dealers?
And this doesn't mean, that their product prices will sky-rocket high on Rolex level. Omega listprices are still 50% below Rolex listprices and fair. If I remember correctly, my comments on MSRP pricing was limited to statements that while I deplore price increases, I couldn't criticize them for their increases as of late because costs have certainly gone up, fuel for transporting materials has doubled or more here in the US, and the exchange rate for the Dollar vs. most of the world currencies has been very negative. So prices have had to be adjusted to account for these factors.
On the other hand, Omega has discontinued a fairly large swath of it's entry level products and replaced them with very expensive models. All in a epoch of great financial uncertainty.
"Omega isn't going to separate itself from "the mass-product-image" by continuing to offer Valjoux, ETA and Dubois-Depraz powered products." Yup, I did say that... it was in reply to your passage where you said:
“Omega just intend to get rid of the mass-product-image by reducing the numers of their outlets.”
Yes, sure, Omega is going to separate itself from the mass-product-image by continuing to offer Valjoux, ETA and Dubois-Depraz powered products. "Omega just intend to get rid of the mass-product-image by reducing the numers of their outlets."
Frankly, Omega could double or half the number of their Authorized Dealers, that won't do anything to eliminate or even reduce their “mass-product-image” as long as they continue to use extremely high production Valjoux, ETA and Dubois-Depraz based movements.
Their “mass-product-image” comes mainly from what's inside and not if there are 10 Authorized dealers in NYC or only 5.
Since Valjoux and higher-grade ETA movements are of superb quality and further enhanced by Omega. Superb quality? [koff koff] I'm not as opinionated as Georges is about ETA, Valjoux, Dubois-Depraz or that ilk of movement. Georges rarely has anything good to say about any of those products. I own dozens of Valjoux, a few ETA's, and some Micro-Rotor movements that Dubois-Depraz has had involvement in. The Valjoux and ETA's are good solid movements. Superb? Superb movements they are not.
Certainly they don't have the exclusive manufacturer-status, ... they have an image of extreme high-volume mass-production...
however this not a real advantage in my eyes but just a marketing-USP, myth and urban legend. I could give a hang about "in-house" movements.
In my collection, I own a half a dozen Zenith El-Primero's, three Gallet Excelsior Park chronographs, A couple of Lemania branded Lemania movements, oh, and the Micro-Rotors which were made by consortium members: the Heuer's, the Bulova, the Hamilton's, etc. I suppose they could be considered "in-house" even though they were made by a consortium of manufacturers (oh, and the Citizen and Seiko "In-house" mechanical's I own too).
The vast majority of my collection are not in-house movements. In-house is a nice curiosity but it doesn't make the watch keep better time nor necessarily equate to being a better product.
This issue is just discussed with too many emotions like many other subjects in the watch communities and fora. I can't speak for entire communities or fora, but to me the quality of the movement means more to me than if the name of the company that made it is the same as on the dial/crown/caseback of the watch.
For me it's quite irritating, ¿ “Irritating” ? ‘Irritating? Ah yes - one of your Earth emotions.’-- Spock, Star Trek (original series) episode: Where No Man has Gone Before
... “Why so emotional?” indeed...
that now, for a sudden, plenty of Omega-collectors seem to be extremely frustrated by the negative outcome for a particular AD. ¿ “that now, for a sudden” ? Not sure where you've been. This is not the first instance of Omega frustrating plenty of collectors... Far from it. It's merely the latest in a overlong list of confounding missteps by Omega.
I completely agree, that the attitude of Omega / Mr. Swift is really more than arrogant and reprehensible in this case however such issues also happen with other brands from time to time. So we shouldn't say anything negative when Omega shuts down a dealer that hundreds of people have done business with and wish to continue to do business with? We should paint ourselves with a smiley face and pat them on the back for their actions?
If we don't voice our disapproval now, when should we? Should we wait until the only place we can purchase Omega's is Tourneau or some overpriced boutique? or should we hold off even then?
Reminds me of a quote I have in my quotes file: - 'When they took the fourth amendment, I was silent because I don't deal drugs.
- When they took the sixth amendment, I kept quiet because I know I'm innocent.
- When they took the second amendment, I said nothing because I don't own a gun.
- Now they've come for the first amendment, and I can't say anything at all.
-- Tim Freeman
Of course it probably loses something in translation outside of the United States.
I don't owe just one brand. I still have a Rolex (will probably sell it soon too), some Omegas and other brands. And I still love my non-vintage Omegas, because I like their style and quality very much. And I am sure, that I still will love them in 30 years.
Felix Nor do I only own one brand. Omega is not my majority brand, merely the one I own the most examples of. Followed by Heuer/Ed. Heuer & Co./TAG-Heuer and then a logjam fighting for third.
I enjoy and treasure my recent new Omega purchases, among them, my Speedmaster Split-Seconds, my Speedmaster Pro Moonphase, My Mitsukoshi LE, my Gemini 4-40th anniversary LE (one of these days I might even unwrap that one).
I might consider purchase of Speedy 50th Anniversary models, and Apollo 11 40th LE's, and possibly Olympic commemorative, at least I'm open minded about them, but Omega is not doing what they need to in order to keep my interest in their offerings. If they spent as much effort in fixing their own house (which most definitely needs attention) as they have in this sorry affair, it would be a different story.
No emotion, just the way it is.
-- Chuck | 
