zOwie Omega Discussion Forum

my answer to you chuck

Posted By: georges zaslavsky

Date: 12/28/05 22:14 GMT

In Response To: Compare and contrast... (Chicagoland Chuck Maddox)

Hi

Manufactures in the purest sense of the term are very few today.

For all I know Rolex might be outsourcing screws (maybe not, as I said For all I know)!

I think there are contracts between movements usppliers and firms. Some firms do the modifications by themselves and other ask the movement manufacturer to do the modification for them on that we agree.

And many arrangements can be painted (defined) only in shades of gray.

1)Ventura and Ikepod (RIP) are two who do/did modify the Valjoux 775x to a greater degree than Omega does, Fortis is another with their Alarm Chronograph's.

-I have never seen Ventura for sale in France as well as in Germany and even Estonia.I don't what their movements look like but I would be interested to see one just for comparing with Omega. About Ikepod I was never a fan of them.

Ikepod's were never traditional, which explains your feelings towards them. I am unaware of Ventura's market penetration in Estonian, French, and German markets. Even in the US they aren't easy to locate. I own a pair of them, a Loga and a V-Matic Master, they are incredible watches, but they are very much Bauhaus in design (which may not be appealing to you Georges)...

-Fortis is of course known for their fortis gerber 2001 calibre

Yup...

2)the breitling version of the lemania 1873 is

far less beautifully finished than a 1861 or

a 1863.How much Breitling (doesn't)

polish(es) the Lemania 1873 doesn't mean

they didn't use it, up until the time when

Swatch Group cut them and others (notably

TAG-Heuer who had an outstanding Carrera

Re-Edition using that movement) off.

-Personnally I like the old Lemania powered carrera more than the navitimer, I think it is better than the new carrera

Me too. I thought the original "Classics Re-Issue" Carrera (manual-wind) was a great watch for TAG, it's a shame that Swatch Group pulled the plug on it. On the other hand I feel the new Carrera is a good product for TAG, the only thing's I find wanting are the black on white date wheel, and they should have used a different model name than Carrera (Pasadena would have been perfect).

3)Correct me if I am wrong, the topic is

about movements, not what firms charge for

their products. What Breitling charges isn't

particularly relevent, Zenith charges twice

and upwards as much as three times what they

used to charge for their products.

Admittedly Zenith starts out with a better

movement, but we aren't talking about

cost-benefit analysis (i.e. value) in this

thread.

-You are right I was slightly off topic ;)

No worries!

4) Cosced or not, COSC remains something

that Breiting does (or at least did last

time I checked) for all of their mechanical

movements. Not even Rolex does that

(Air-King, no-date Sub).

-Yes but I would rather have air king or a no sub date than a super ocean or an ocean with an eta 2824-2. The rolex movement even not cosced is technically and mechanically superior to an eta 2824-2

Personally I would too, but on the other hand I might choose a 7750 COSC rated Breitling over a 7750 non-COSC based Tudor/TAG/Omega.

4)Breitling has never been known for

manufacturing outstanding quality movements

as Omega did and does. Again, in the

purest tense of " manufacture "

I'm hard pressed to name a single movement

save the c.1666 that Omega manufacturers

... Yes, they have an exclusive on their

c.33xx line (such as it is) and the

Co-Axial, but those are made for them by

another Swatch firm (F. Piguet, and the base

movement for the Co-Axial is an ETA

movement) Georges.

-before 1984 Omega was a 100% manufacture, but when Hayek baught the firm things changed completely and I do agree with your point of view

I too look forward to the time that Omega blows the dust off the machining for their movements of elder days and fires up production, until then they are only a manufacture wben it comes to the c.1666.

5)venus 178 was the best movement breitling

proposed in its chronographs, I don't

know... I own a Venus 178 (AOPA Navitimer)

which has never failed me, but I think the

Lemania 1873 is a match for it.

-the venus 178 is a very smooth to operate chrono and a greatly finished movement it is used in limited numbers in Jacques Etoile chronographs

I don't disagree with the operation smoothness of the Venus 178 in my very finite experience.

6)however a 321 is better built and far more

reliable.Perhaps. I wouldn't bet against

the c.321, but then again how many firms

used that movement? Omega, Tissot, perhaps

Bucherer back in the day. Who else?

-Patek, Ulysse Nardin and Vacheron Constantin used and use the lemania 2320 the modernized version of the lemania 2310 in soem of their chronographs. Today patek uses its own inhouse chrono movement based on an old victorin pigeut calibre.

However in it's non-current c.2310 and c.2320 forms, who used it aside from Omega, Tissot, and possibly Bucherer? I don't know. Perhaps it's simply (Oh! Meylan used them too!) Omega, Tissot and Meylan...

7)About the cal 36, it is just a rebadged el

primero with no improvements.And how many improvements does the El-Primero need,

Georges? And this is TAG-Heuer, not

Zenith... Zenith is the Luxury brand of LVMH

not TAG.

- It is not without reason that Rolex modified the el primero a lot when adopting it as the base calibre for the daytona in 1987. They made it more simple and ticking at 28800bph in order tp increase the movement longevity and they changed the balance as well. The movement was also far more easier to service as compared to a classic el primero. The modified el primero by rolex was known as the 4030

Rolex has long had an eye towards ease of maintanence. Something that the El-Primero's high-beat and it's necessarily high-tech lubricants run counter too.

However, the question still stands, what improvements does TAG-Heuer need to make to the El-Primero? I'm not sure I'd trust TAG to do any improvements well.

8)As for the quality of TAG-Heuer finishing of

movements:Please detail to me the differences in quality between an Omega prepared c.1861 (c.1873 base) and the TAG-Heuer prepared c.1873 above... Yes, I know the c.1863 goes one level above this because it's a display back model, I am comparing like with like:
non-display back

with like non-display back. My point is that

TAG-Heuer can and does a good job with it's

movements, and they are far from being as

bad as most of TAG's detractors would have

one believe. If you don't agree with me,

again, please point out those differences.

-I find the finish more rough than on an Omega 1861

I find them photo-finish comparable, and I own examples of both and have viewed them under high magnification.

8)The 33xx has a keyless balance, kif shock

protection and also a bigger power reserve

than the cal 36. And its reliablity

sucks. All the fancy features in the world

aren't worth squat if they don't work, work

reliably and over the long haul. In fact

"Shock damage" is Omega's most

frequently cited excuse for the failures of

the c.33xx movement, if that's the kind of

protection KIF provides I'd rather be

without it!

-the 33xx is mostly a specific problem to the US, I have rarely heard if not never heard of 33xx problems in Europe.

It's very odd that problems would supposedly mostly occur in the US, is Omega dumping their problems on our shores or ???

Regardless of regional outbreaks of problems, the whole lot is suspect in my opinion.

You should check JM's website where some people wrote about their 33xx reliability

I've had more than my share of c.33xx owners who champion their watches reliability only to recant when their example fails, and then snap back to championing the movement once it's spent a month or two at Omega Bienne.

Certainly not everyone has had problems with their c.33xx examples, but many many people have and have had repeated bad luck with them and with Omega customer service.

9)I may not like the moves of Omega,

and I may be tenative of where TAG seems to

be going (I see good and bad), but Zenith

has disappointed me more than any other

manufacture with their direction the past 4

years or so.

-agreed

I don't mind eclectic, I own four of the more eclectic chronographs that Zenith has ever produced...

I'll leave it up to you to decide which are the four more eclectic examples...

But screwball doesn't impress me:

Is there anyone who think that thing looks good?

10)IWC also is a heavy user of the Valjoux/ETA 7750 movement, people claim great finish on the IWC versions of the 7750, but I don't see

anything of note on my Porsche Design/IWC examples.

-I am not enough knowledgeable about porsche design/IWC watches

For all I know, IWC may have considered the PD's their "entry level" models, or beneath their usual products, but I haven't seen any comparable IWC's from that era to compare and contrast with.

11)Experience, yes, I agree, however, I wouldn't put the quality and/or finish as being significantly different (and certainly no better) than Omega, Ventura or Ikepod.

-agreed here as well

Good.

Thanks for making the topics always enjoyeable Chuck, have a nice day.

Always one of the goals: interesting, educational, informative, enjoyable/fun, humorous. If I hit on three or more I'm not disappointed in my efforts, if I nail all of them, I am satisfied.

regards

georges

And to you too Georges,

Chuck