zOwie Omega Discussion Forum

1)Is eta considered as a high grade ebauche/movement manufacturer today? No it isn't and it is just average quality ebauche/movement manufacturer so stop trying to pass eta for something exceptional when it is not. Please explain me how the eta 2892-a2 went up in quality with concrete facts. Longines were truely making exceptional chrono as well as handwound and self winding movements before the 80's. Now what you find in longines or hamilton is a basic decorated 2892-2 or 2824-2 with no improvements and you say that thanks the use of a standard very common movement those firms have gone better? They probably have sold more watches but their reputation isn't the same as it used to be. IWC makes nice inhouse modified 2892-2 eta but I clearly prefer their inhouse movements like the calibre 5000 and 80110, they use the samuel pelaton winding system and are far better quality than the 2892-2. Ulysse Nardin makes nice watches but I don't se emyself paying over 4000 let alone 5000$ for a modified eta 2892-2 movement. Cartier was never reaching the same position than Ulysse Nardin let alone IWC. A brand like Cartier is not a brand that has played an important role in the developpment of watchmaking. It is just a fashion brand.

I would say that in regards to your first question/statement about a movement being high grade depends on who you ask and or the application...with that said I think anyone "in the know" would be hard pressed to call the current or past crop of Rolex calibers or etas for that matter in their generic form "high grade", sure they are workhorses, but none of them have any truly exquisite features or finish work. Sure Rolex has a few interesting engineering points with their balance system and their overcoil, but that balance system has been easily matched by that in the 2500 Co Axial, and the necessity for a breguet overcoil is something that is often debated, with modern machining processes the flat springs available perform just as well when it comes to positional accuracy/consistency.

The difference is that there are companies like IWC, UN and others which take ETA movements and turn them into something truly spectacular, a shame the same cannot and will never be said of Rolex as even their top finished Prince movements are put into watches that are supposedly "dogs" with chintzy leather straps and casework that is reportedly a joke for the price.

As far as longines is concerned as well as Hamilton, while the movements and pieces might not be interesting from your standpoint Georges as they are not in house and or to you unique, there is no denying that with the advances in modern technology and assembly the finish work and the detail of the pieces for the price is far better than it was in the past. I have seen more than a few truly amazing modern Longines pieces that from a workmanship standpoint put much of what Rolex offers to shame for a fraction of the cost.

As far as IWC is concerned wasn't there some who even criticised them for somewhat copying designs of other movements for their new calibers? and regarless the cost differential between the new in house movement and their older modified ETAs is something to be noted, though I agree from an engineering standpoint the in house calibers are more interesting, both movements are finished to a wonderful degree and are easily nicer than any Rolex caliber offered over the lifespan of the company. Your comments on UN are subjective at best as while you won't pay for them that doesn't stop the reality from being their movement and casework is supurb and even though they use ETA they are easily considered "high grade". I am a bit distraght that anyone who considers themselves "into" watches is so quick to dismiss Cartier as if it wasn't for them one might wonder where we would be with regards to wristwatches all together, with that said though there is no denying that they also chose the 2892 for their watches and easily have the capability to manufacture their own movements should they desire, so with all of these high end companies picking the ETA one has to wonder if it is simply a matter of cost or if the movement design is just that good.

2)where did you read that? Watch time magazine? And you believe all what the press says? I don't.Prove me please with concrete facts that Omega quality control is tighter than Rolex quality control.I can only comment of the performance of the watch after I have worn it during many many years not a month or two.

More personal observation than anything, but also have read owner accounts as well as talked to many who owned both brands, as well as various reviews by watchmakers and even the infamous Odets article. I have seen plenty of NIB Rolex pieces which had dials that were void of text, arabics that were upside down, over lume applied, wrong hands installed, mis finished lugs, material under the crystal, so many that I have lost count....while I have heard of a few new Omega's comming with some interesting "issues" none were ever as outlandish as some of the mistakes I have personally seen from Rolex with my own eyes....I have an image collage which features a few of the more laughable Rolex mistakes I have seen, something I might add that I have never been able to duplicate with any other brand including those costing in the hundreds of dollars. If that is any indication of the "quality control" you speak of Georges then by all means give me the mass produced ETA piece any day of the week.

3)See I was right you consider a Grand Seiko as better than Omega and Rolex. The grand seiko is very inspired of the Rolex but to be honest I will rather have a Rolex over a grand seiko because a grand seiko is not on par with Rolex in terms of quality and accuracy. Your impression abour Rolex dials is completely wrong

I fail to see your point Georges, in fact many will agree that the Grand Seiko line of watches features finish work and construction which is superior to that of what Rolex and Omega offer (though in some cases Omega handily surpasses the GS line)....I would argue your comments about their accuracy and ask you for some hard facts on why you feel Seiko isn't on par with Rolex in terms of quality (here is where I chuckle) and accuracy, as Seikos watches are arguably some of the most accurate on the market...as far as the Rolex dials are concerned, like I said I have seen more than a few suck Rolex dials, even owned a piece which had a horrible dial...for what you pay the quality just isn't there.

4)My uncle owns over 30 Montblanc pens and over a dozen of duofolds. The fact that you only got problems doesn't mean that other had problems with them. You are the only person saying that a Montblanc writes poorly. Wonder if you know that Montblanc is german and that german products are always of far better quality than italian products not only when it comes to pens but watches and cars as well.The other italian pen brands are very expensive because they are mainly built with some rare materials and have also nice aesthetics but aesthetics alone are not a warrant of a better product or craftsmanship. All you do matthew is to rely on the press critics. I know many happy Montblanc owners (in USA, in England and in France) and even in luxury pen shops the brands you see the most are montblanc, parker, pelikan, waterman, shaeffer, caran dache, dunhill, namiki, sailor but you very rarely see the italian brands.

Might I suggest you broaden your horizons Georges and rely on others for info instead of taking your uncles word as gospel? though in all fairness I could see how ignorance is bliss as it helps plenty of modern mercedes and bose owners sleep soundly through the night :)

I have been a member of more than a few fountain pen enthusiast communities for almost as long as I have been into watches, everything from alt.collecting pens/pencils to rambling snail and pentrace...there are a few others but I won't get into a laundry list...to mention the short of it I am far from the only one with complaints and or problems with Montblanc, in fact I go easier on the brand and their product than many others who know alot more than I...the fact is that since the late 70s they changed the material with which they manufacture their plastic pens, the new plastic which they deem "precious resin" is simply a plastic which uses a higher glass content...the good is it looks pretty and resists scratching much better than what they were using before in their vintage pens, the bad is that it is very very brittle...Montblanc had a notorious problem with their seals throughout the 80s and 90s and was only recently corrected, their flagship 149 diplomat was notorious for leaking where the nib meets the barrel as was their 146 le grand and their 144 classique, what made matters worse is that MB didn't own up to their fault and instead charged owners the exorbitant fee of $60-100 US to repair each pen depending on model...many owners simply threw them in the trash or a drawer.

Then there was the problem with the entire 144 line which broke like fine china, the problem with these was two fold, the joint between the two sections of the barrel were plastic to plastic which would wear down their resin and cause cracking, the second and worse problem was that the barrel wall was far too thin in design and would lead to breaking. Ultimately Montblanc finally acknowledged the problem and discontinued the 144 only to replace it with the 145 chopin series which featured a thicker barrel and brass threaded inserts. A better design, but if the pen is even dropped from a short height it will still suffer damage. Though it is interesting to note that MB didn't completely kill the design with the 144 as they got a little bit more out of their cheapness with their generation line, I have owned a few of these bought at steep discounts, I truly feel sorry for those who bought them at or near MSRP as even at over 50% off I felt ripped off, their construction is laughable and chintzy...truly bottom of the barrel but a testament that with the right brand name anything will sell for a hefty premium.

Then and finally there is the issue with their writing performance....on the ballpoint side many complain that the MB refills are pricy (which they are) and don't last long at all...I don't use mine enough to know though I will say the refills aren't cheap all things considered. The fountains are much more interesting as while the nibs are "in house" which I am sure you prefer Georges, and they are rather ornate when compared with truly great nibs like the Boch which Pelikan use, the fact is that many Montblanc owners complain of mis aligned tines which lead to scratchy writing performance and poor ink flow, and even after returning a few pieces owners have witnessed the same shoddy construction/finish...not to mention that they over rhodium plate the tip of the nibs making ink flow poor as well as the nibs themselves have become very stiff when compared to the competition...most don't like this, myself included as I prefer writing with a nib that has a bit of flex.

All in all I find it interesting you say most appreciate MB as from my experience I find it quite the opposite, most enthusiasts tolerate MB and feel that a few of their pens are OK, but the majority feel much like Rolex that they are overpriced, over hyped, and all things considered under perform given the hype which surrounds the brand. Though Montblanc knows their market cares little about the performance of the pens and instead puts emphasis in the status and or the aesthetics, many consider MB to be simply pocket jewelery and nothing more. I myself have owned two 145 platinum chopins with medium nibs and one 146 le grand also with a medium nib, all of them had poor ink flow and were scratchy, was funny that my $20 Waterman Phileas would write circles around them not to mention my $70 namiki vanishing point and my $90 Pelikan 600....the 145 now has a street price of what? $340 and the 146 I believe is upwards of $400...my first 145 I bought for under two hundred bucks and felt like I was ripped off and sold it, my wife thought I liked the pen and bought me another for a wedding gift which is why I still have one, the 146 I bought for a steal at under two hundred again, and again I felt like it was a joke for that kind of money, sold it as well.

What is interesting to note is that both Montblanc and Montegrappa are owned by Richemont....now there is a bit of a conglomerate for you Georges, why no hatred towards MB or is it because they are the percieved leader in their respective field?

5)Rolex didn't leech off zenith, zenith sold them the ebauche and Rolex modified it for maximum reliability and ease of maintenance. Then in the mid 90's Rolex decided to study and design its own chrono movement something it achieved brilliantly.The eta2892-a2 was cheap to buy that is why UN and cartier baught it. IWC is already developping it inhouse movements with the cal 5000 found in the big pilot and portuguese perpetual calendar and 80110 found in the Ingenieur. The eta 2892-a2 is good but nothing exceptional.

Using your logic Rolex was too lazy or didn't have the resources to manufacture their own chrono movement and thus they relied on Zenith, in fact it wasn't until Zenith got acquired by LVMH that Rolex decided it would be in their best interest to manufacture their own movement, one has to wonder if they would have been perfectly content in using the zenith caliber had that deal never happened. Again I feel it is really short sighted and naieve to suggest that the only reason IWC, UN, and Cartier choose the ETA was due to price and not with performance. Using your arguments one could easily say that the 313X series of Rolex is "good" but not exceptional, especially when compared to their 15XX calibers that were far more rare, far more robust, and in their day truly innovative.

6)Non issue? Never say never. The fact that it hasn't happened in a while doesn't tell you that it can't happen again. See what was said with the 33xx on which failure were said to be resolved, fact is that they were not.

Yes, non issue. It happened in the past, effected a handful of owners on this forum as well as a few others, and now long after its initial reports no one has said boo about the issue which to me is a clear indicator that it is no longer a problem, I am sure pigs can fly as well or frogs will start raining from the sky but I won't hold my breath waiting for it.

as far as your last points all I can say is that no company is perfect, but to put Rolex on a pedestal in comparison to Rolex simply because they are "in house" in my opinion is a mistake, the company makes an OK watch but nothing special and certainly nothing to make a big deal over, especially when compared to Omega and other brands which offer products that are at least as good if not better for a fraction of the cost....I think alot of these companies have changed a great deal since their glory days in the past...if anything Rolex has in my opinion moved the furthest from that which made them great and into a brand which cares more about status and image and little about their customer, their product, and or even their history.