zOwie Omega Discussion Forum

:

: 70s chronograph technical question Posted By:
: Tom M. Date: 1/4/08 23:24 GMT Hi Tom!
: Great to see you post here! Would love to
: encourage more of this!

: (WARNING--Omega-bashing content) Eh,
: [rolls up sleeves] I'm easy...

: Just want to get an evaluation of this
: statement re: 1970s chronograph movements
: from a source that will remain anonymous:
: S/He may remain anonymous, but I have a good
: idea for a couple of canidates!

: "Do you want to get technical on the
: 1970s Omega movements--let me know.
: Incidentally, Lemania made all chronograph
: movements for Omega in the 1970's save for
: the LCD Quartz and Speedsonic movements.
: Calling them "Omega movements" is
: really an uninformed newbie type mistake,
: but we'll humor the bloke.

: For starters, one should look at the
: [chronograph] function caliber parts. The
: re-setting strikers are poorly designed, as
: well as the use of brass bushing instead of
: jewels at critical pressure points.
: [Snicker] One really shouldn't seek out to
: engage a Lemania chronograph vs. a Valjoux
: chronograph in the 1970's on their levers...
: Especially the Valjoux 72 Vs. either the
: Lemania c.2310/2320 [Omega c.321] or the
: Lemania c.x873 [Omega c.861].

: A paragraph [or two] in the spirit of full
: disclosure: I don't own a "Rolex
: Rolex"... I own a pair of Tudor
: Oysterdate Chronographs [Valjoux 7750
: based]:

:
:

: ... So I own Rolex product, but many
: Rolexphiles might argue I am not a Rolex
: owner [like I care...]. I own a lot of
: Omega's [a lot of Heuer's, Longines, Tissot,
: Porsche Design, Gallet, etc. too]. I don't
: keep tallys of how many watches of each
: brand I own, nor do I keep tallys on
: movement types either. I own more than a
: handful of: Lemania c.2310/2320's, c.x873's,
: and Valjoux 72 family movements.... In fact
: I might own more Valjoux 72's than I do the
: Lemania manual wind models [which seems to
: be the brunt of Anonymous's rant]. But not a
: Rolex based v.72.

: Personally I prefer the Lemania based Omega
: c.321 over the Valjoux 72 series myself...
: Here I'll use previously posted group of
: photos to illustrate one of the reasons
: why...

:

:

: Above Left, we have an (unaltered) Valjoux
: 72 picture

: Immediate Left, the c.321.

: Above Right: is an animation of the Valjoux
: 72 showing two of several levers in the
: Valjoux 72 that are considerably thiner and
: more delicate than similar levers that
: Lemania use in the c.321, [and the c.x87x
: series uses similarly BEEFY levers]. While I
: personally have never experienced a failure
: of one of these parts, they look exceedinly
: delicate/fragile to me and the Lemania seems
: to be much beefier by means of
: comparision...

: Many Omegaphiles will trumpet ' the Moonwatch
: passed all of the NASA tests! while the
: Valjoux 72 failed '. Well, yeah, sort of
: . If a critical thinker looks at why the
: Longines and Rolex failed (warped hands and
: a crystal falling off of the watch) it's
: really hard to blame the movement for
: those problems. We really don't know if the
: v.72 would have held up if they hadn't
: experienced those non-movement related
: issues.

: I also like the looks and the gilt plating of
: of the c.321 better, that's a personal
: opinion, but what the hey... I'm talking
: about my personal preferences... Everone
: is entitled to their own preferences, but
: more importantly everony is entitled to hold
: [and adopt] my opinion! ;-)

: I have my preferences... But in my experience
: [and I have considerable day to day
: experience with both 1960-1970's Lemania and
: Valjoux chronographs] they both perform
: comparably... I haven't done any statistical
: or scientific analysis of their accuracy or
: service needs but I haven't seen anything to
: point to one firm or the other's as being
: demonstrably better.

: As you tear down the caliber you will be
: shocked to find plastic and gap-filling
: inserts nestled away. Will you find
: composite parts in the Lemania 5100? Yes,
: and it's not shocking, or at least it
: shouldn't be by this time. The Lemania 5100
: was specifically made with synthetic parts
: specifically because they were better suited
: for the task than metal parts. Same thing
: with the Delrin® brake in the Omega c.861
: [Lemania 2310] movement of this epoch. The
: plain and simple fact is the Delrin® part
: does a better job than a metal one.

: Please tear down any 1970s Omega chronograph
: movement and you will see how cheaply they
: are made. Do we really need to include a
: link to olé Walt Odets article to illustrate
: the finish of Rolex products?

: The 727 and 234 Valjoux looks like a [Patek]
: movement compared to the 1970s Omega
: chronograph calibers. The Valjoux 72
: looks like a fragile and delicate mechanism
: compared to the rugged reliable c.321 or
: c.861 of the 1960's and 1970's.

: Do not get me started on the balance and
: hairspring quality on the Omega
: caliber." It'd probably change far
: fewer minds than getting me started on a
: comprehensive comparative value of a Daytona
: Vs. a Speedmaster. In the end it's a
: personal value judgement.

: What it all boils down to is that everone wants
: to feel strongly justified in the purchase
: decision[s] they have made. Many people feel
: the only way they can feel good about their
: choices is to tear down the choice they
: eschew. The fact is both Omega and Rolex
: made exceedingly good products in this
: epoch, they were strong competitiors and
: rivals...

: About Rivals and Rivalry...

: Additionally, a lot of people are in hte habit
: of looking back at historical events and
: plying up rivalries or conflicts to
: "spice up the story". It's not all
: that different than comparing A.J. Foyt and
: Mario Andretti... AJ is the only man to have
: won the Indy 500, Daytona 500 and the 24
: Hours of LeMans. Mario isthe only man to
: have won the Indy 500, Daytona 500 and the
: F1 Championship [this may change soon with
: the influx of Indy/F1 drivers to NASCAR
: though]. AJ and Mario competed often and
: were more than a match for each other.
: Neither of them were slouches or
: demonstratably superior to the other. At any
: race they both competed in either one could
: rule the day.

: The same thing applies to Rolex and Omega or
: Heuer and Omega during this epoch... There
: is a clip from the Steve McQueen film LeMans
: which explains well how I feel about these
: brands in this epoch:

:

: The key words spoken here are said by the Erich
: Stahler character [Seigfried Rauch]:
: "He's fast, I'm fast, so we're always
: together!"

: And so it is with: Omega and Rolex, Omega and
: Heuer, etc. They are always competing with
: similar watches for the same customer's
: money. So as a result, they are rivals,
: great rivals. As a result I expect there to
: be rivalry between Omega owners and Rolex
: owners, Heuer owners and Omega owners. I
: expect there to be PASSION for I expect
: people to be passionate about things that
: are important to them. And I expect such
: passion to be expressed and displayed in
: watch enthusiast forums.

: When it comes down to the summation, One can
: have and express one's opinions and make
: their own choices. But the most part the
: products of these firms were competitive
: with one another and made comparable
: products.

: What is the consensus on this analysis--sound
: or BS? While there are tiny little
: glints of facts in there: yes there were
: synthetic parts used when appropriate in
: movements that Omega shipped in the 1970's.
: However for the most part this bloke is
: basically a "Rolex Apple
: Polisher". Most of his prose is
: off-base at best, and flatly wrong in most
: instances. I'll close with one notably
: glaring passage: “ The re-setting strikers
: are poorly designed, as well as the use of
: brass bushing instead of jewels at critical
: pressure points. ”

: How many jewels are there in a Valjoux 72 [and
: in a Rolex v.727]? 17 . How many Jewels
: in an Omega c.321? 17 . Omega c.861? 17
: [in the 1970's, more recent models have 18]
: . How many in the c.1045 [Lemania 5100]?
: 17. How many in the c.1040/1041 [Lemania
: 1342]? 22 . If the Rolex used Jewels at
: these critical pressure points why isn't
: their jewel count higher? I realize there
: isn't a 1:1 correlation with Jewels and
: quality...

:

: But if Omega is so bad for not using jewels,
: where are Rolex's Jewels???

: I respect the Valjoux 72 family of movements. I
: respect the Rolex Daytona [and Pre-Daytona]
: too. I like them, but I personally would
: rather have a half a dozen Omega's or
: Heuer's [or Porsche Design, or Gallet, or
: ...] than a single Daytona or Pre-Daytona.
: I'm comfortable with my choice, and I don't
: feel I have to run down the choice I didn't
: take either.

: TIA & HAGWE, Hope this is helpful...

: Tom -- Chuck

: Chuck Maddox

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: life, only improve with time...

:

Great job, Chuck

Sam