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"Gray market" dealers Posted By: JS Date: 2/2/08 22:49 GMT
Just thought I would post a quick bit about so-called "gray market" dealers, I'm not sure the ""quotes around gray market is really necessary, but...
after having read and replied to a slam on one on this forum (seller and subject of tirades at www.authenticwatches.com). OK, fair enough. I'm not sure where the post by "Jeff" [not sure if those quotes are necessary eitherl but there are several Jeffs about] falls on the "Customer experience/slam" chart, but if you wish to talk about the topic, that's fine.
Anyone considering an online purchase from this type dealer, whether directly from a "store" website or through eBay, should do their homework and research and understand what they sell, and more specifically should understand what they're buying before making any purchase. Absolutely and no quibbles about this. Of course this advice also holds with purchases with Brick and mortar and or face to face transactions one might consider entering into at a Flea Market or watch show.
These "professional" sellers (and unlike many eBay individual sellers) do not deal in pre-owned or refurbished watches. Quibble here... That is far too broad of a statement in this case. Many Gray Market sellers do also deal in refurbished or non-new watches too. Bernard's, whom you cite later on, is one case in point and when a customer decides to eat the 10% [or whatever it is] restocking fee and returns a watch they bought, it isn't going to sit unsold and/or unoffered at that Gray Market seller. It will either be tested and made available for purchase nearly immediately or repaired and offered again thereafter.
Their stock comes from former jewelry store displays, overstock items, and store stock that became obsolete due to newer models/movements. In most cases this is correct.
It's easy enough to do a bit of research before buying one through these type dealers, to read item descriptions CLOSELY and to check pictures CLOSELY before buying if looking at online, and above all to ask the dealer on the phone about anything and EVERYTHING...
you don't fully understand. I don't disagree with this passage much either. I don't know that I would use the word "easy" because it does take time and effort to do the research necessary. But it's really difficult for me to lay the blame entirely on a gray marketeer when the buyer has a wad of money burning a hole in his wallet and he does an internet search for the cheapest price and calls up that seller and says ship it out.
Order in haste, regret at leisure.
A point to consider is that you are usually buying a high-end luxury or semi-luxury watch that's never been owned at half or more less than the cost of one bought at an authorized dealer physical store. I'm not going to agree with your figures of half or more off. While some AD's do not [or only grudgingly discount, others do offer substancial discounts and those discounts are often within a couple of hundred dollars [read that as about $200] or LESS from what one can get the same watch [albeit without the world-wide warrantee and often with the serial numbers removed] at a Gray Market dealer.
In fact, I strongly doubt that you'll be able to find a price of a new, never before owned model for half [or more] of the price you could get the same model at the forum favorite AD. Comparing MSRP's with Gray Market "out the door" prices isn't the same thing as what you can get from certain AD's.
Think about it. There's a "price" you pay for that much savings, namely that you will normally NOT have an OEM warranty, but rather one if offered from the actual seller company. And no recourse if there should be a problem with the watch other than what the seller will do. You have no warrantee with the maker of the watch, nor the makers agents in the country of purchase. The maker may elect to service the watch for you [perhaps at your cost, perhaps even at their expense], but there is no guarentee that they will. Your only remedy if something goes wrong with the watch under the sellers warrantee is to let the seller deal with it or pay for repairs elsewhere yourself.
Also, you may be looking at or considering a watch with NO MANUFACTURER SERIAL NUMBERS, even though it's really genuine and authentic. True and with some watches it's becoming increasingly difficult to discern a genuine and high-quality counterfeit watches that are on the market. I've seen articles and pictorals in print publications where I couldn't tell real from fake. A lack of serial numbers complicates the process and nearly certainly necessitates taking the caseback off to examine the movement to determine authenticity, which can be difficult if you don't have the specialized wrenches and tools that some watches [in particular Rolex and Omega Seamaster] require to remove the caseback.
When you buy from an AD you have certainty. With a gray, if you are rational, you'll always have a certain amount of doubt.
It's sometimes the case that serial numbers had to be professionally Or not professionally. I've seen some Gray's sell watches with serial numbers coarsly ground off with no more skill than a 13-year old with a Dremel tool.
removed on what is otherwise an authentic watch due to OEM legal requirements and depending on where the stock was obtained. The primary reason is to obscure the origin of the watch [which AD sold it's stock to a gray-marketeer]. It's really a silly process because the movement also has a serial number and unless both serial numbers are removed/destroyed the manufacturer will be able to determine which watch is which. And if the serial number is removed from the movement, chances are it won't service the watch under any circumstances [as well they shouldn't].
If considering a purchase, make sure the one you're after has the manufacturer serial numbers, and it's easy enough to verify that with item descriptions and/or item photos on a website, or by specifically asking a salesperson on the phone. And writing down this information and having it at the ready if you receive a watch without a serial number.
It's not a matter of these type dealers trying to hide something or doing a "ripoff" as at least one person posted, But few Gray Marketeers will put any effort into explaining the entire terms of a purchased unless asked directly, and they are not always entirely truthful when asked either.
it's more a matter that they figure anyone spending upwards of a grand would have half a brain and know what they're doing. I wouldn't assume or assert that. It's not in their best interest in moving product to delve deeply into the details of a purchase when it's possible, if not exceedingly likely that the potential buyer would be scared off if they did.
Assumption that the seller knows what they are doing doesn't enter into it. In fact if the seller did know what they were doing they probably would be twiddling their thumbs instead of talking on the phone.
It's not their job to go out of their way to keep someone from being ignorant (think new car dealer). Their job is to move the product. Anything else is chaff.
I only post this due to being a bit put off by several people slamming this particular company, with problems caused by their lack of knowledge about what they were buying, and possibly to help others if considering a purchase this way. I have no problem with people sharing their experience, good or bad, and I also have no qualms about asking direct questions either.
And no, I don't work for that company nor know anyone that does, but I did recently order an Omega Speedmaster Reduced (Automatic) from them, and could not be happier with my purchase. I recently considered the purchase of a backup digital camera to the Olympus Stylus 750 I currently use. I was able to find a price of $249 on Amazon, and a price of $169 from a another company on the web. I looked at the seller ratings of this seller, there were 600+ posts on this seller and their average rating was 2.5 out of 5, with quite a few 5 Star ratings, but overall... 165 positive review, 27 neutrals and 428 negative. Is $80 worth a bad experience? I wasn't able to answer that question and I haven't purchased the camera yet.
But I get worried when I see polarization of customer responses.
For much, much less than the cost of a brand new model from an authorized dealer store, I'm not certain that is the case, I'd have to do some comparisions myself. Also remember that AD discounts vary widely.
I got a never-owned one in immaculate condition with all the original packaging, owner's manual, and model/serial/movement-numbers tag, and had the authenticity verified by a dealer and by e-mail contacting the Omega watch company with the serial. From what I've read elsewhere, both here and on other sites, you are fortunate.
A great purchase, but I had done my homework and understood that the one I was buying DID have the serial number on the watch, that I would NOT have an Omega warranty, etc. A little self-education equals no nasty surprises. And your asking these questions of the seller put them on notice that you were an educated customer. A company is going to be less likely to do anything to someone who delves into details.
The OEM companies tolerate these "gray market" dealers, I wouldn't say that. I believe that the manufacturers enact policies which enevatably allow the gray market to exist and perhaps even flourish but it's as a result of other objectives they seek to obtain and that's the cost of those policies and objectives. Manufacturers make items to sell at a profit, they establish dealer networks to sell their products so they don't have to do it themselves [even though Omega and certain other manufacturers are trying to have their cake and eat it by opening their own botiques]. They also institute minimum annual purchases by an AD in order to maintain their AD status, and often dictate how much dealers can discount their products they offer to the end consumer.
At some point if the AD has to order more product in order to reach their quota and has to raise the money to order that product, they have to convert their unsold stock to cash.
That's how a gray market starts.
and actually find them beneficial. I think if Rolex, TAG, Omega and others could wave their hand and have the Gray Market disappear, they would, but they can't and still have their deals with the AD's. So as a result they have to settle for something less. The Gray-Market situation, apparently, is the least loathsome of the alternatives.
If an authorized physical store seller ends up with stock that didn't sell, or that they can't sell as new due to being display models or having been replaced by newer models, they have an outlet for recouping some or all of their cost from their OEM stock orders. Otherwise, they would ultimately lose money and it wouldn't be good for their business or the OEM's. The manufacturers aren't going to take back unsold product any more than Ford or GM is going to take back unsold previous year models back from their dealerships. It's up to the dealers to sell, lease, rent or otherwise recoup the costs of that product.
In general, the company referenced above is good and legitimate, I can't say that and won't assume that. I wouldn't recommend anyone else do so either. Investigate for your self and make your own decisions.
and there are others like it. That may well be.
They are a good source of buying genuine, authentic merchandise at a sizable savings, I won't grant that but continue.
and especially for older models that you fancy but that dealer stores no longer carry. Observation: One can always ask a seller to try to locate a discontinued model through the AD network. Every AD had a brand representitive from every brand it caries [although there may be one rep for Swatch Group brands, etc.]. The AD can ask their Rep to keep an eye out for a "old pattern Speedmaster Reduced" or a Speedmaster Split-Seconds 7750 and the Rep can inquire within his sales territory and with other reps. That's how I found my Split-Second 7750 two years after it was discontinued...
I've also ordered watches from www.bernardwatch.com with great experiences, just to mention another. While I haven't ordered a watch through Bernard Watch, I have done business with them and I have been happy with my experience with them.
Another quick bit of advice, for what it's worth. Be careful with eBay watch sellers that are individuals, regardless of their length of membership, number of sales, and ratings. Some are very good and some are dubious at best. Good advice. Sellers are only as good as their current sale.
And it's not uncommon for some to replace inner movement parts, bracelets, etc., with other parts to "restore" a piece for sale. The only way to 100% be sure any watch bought online is 100% authentic is to have it inspected by an authorized dealer of that brand, including removing the case back and inspecting the movement. Although plenty of pictures can easily let the educated separate the good from the franken.
Sellers count on the fact that most people will never go to the trouble and cost of doing that unless there's an obvious fake look about one or a problem with it functioning properly, and will of course provide a glowing member rating on an eBay purchase after receiving the item and without having it checked out. True. Don't be in a big hurry to post positive [or negative], take a day or two to make sure everything seems right before posting feedback.
Thanks for your time in reading this! Likewise, and I hope you see where I'm coming from too. I'd also like to hear what specific model of Speedmaster Reduced you purchased from AW and what you paid.
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