"Mr. Moderator" isn't necessary… Morning Chuck is fine…
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Dear Mr. Moderator Posted By: Scott Date: 12/1/07 17:36:31 GMT "Morning Chuck" is suffecient, as no one is in hot water here yet.
In Response To: Unfortunately, I have to put on the Moderator cap: (Chicagoland Chuck Maddox)
Morning Chuck, There we go!
That was long one. Yeah, sorry. I couldn't avoid it. And I just posted another long one of similar tone over in ZOWIE, busy morning.
I used Rolf because I emailed him about the auction and Rolf and I discussed what he was selling. So, I should have more explicit about why I used Rolf's name. He represented himself to me to be the seller. OK, I'll take that under advisement. I didn't know about that, so I went with what I knew. I see that Rolf is requesting his initial post be deleted, which I am not inclined to do and will be heading over there next.
You are right about not impugning Rolf without having first hand knowledge, but Andy asked a question and I felt comfortable, using the facts as Andy presented them, to respond. If the facts are different, I would hope Rolf would stop by and state his position. OK, I would have felt more comfortable if you had simply asked Rolf to share his role in the situation publically rather than ,,outing him,,. Reputations are at stake and it's usually best to take a moderate neutral role in any situation one is not directly involved in even if one isn't a moderator. One of my duties is to try to keep flame wars to a minimum. This is a sensitive topic with the potential to be explosive. I have to try to fulfill my duties, all of them, to the best of my ability.
Sometimes, its more difficult than others because of the way people express their thoughts. Which is why agreeing to be a moderator should come with great deliberation.
As for using a translating website, I am not comfortable with auctions, etc., when I am not perfectly clear on what is being sold and the terms. I've made mistakes before, and they are my fault when the language is unfamiliar. So rather than make the same mistake again, I prefer to pass. Just my choice. A perfectly reasonable choice to make and position to take. If one isn't comfortable with the pitfalls one shouldn't put oneself in a position to fall pray to them. Still the translating site is useful even if one isn't going to be attempting transactions.
As for anyone being screwed, Andy and Rolf had a contract, and Andy has been screwed out of the benefit of his bargain when Rolf interposed an unreasonable shipping/handling term on the deal. Certainly that is one way to look at it. And I think that most, if not all, regulars here would agree that the terms insisted upon by the seller of the watch for shipping to the UK was unreasonable. In fact, I will go so far to say it's not reasonable to charge any more than for the time/materials necessary to package the product to satisfy international shipping requirements [meaning any additional packaging and customs forms]. And I know it doesn't take 2.5 hours to pack a watch to ship internationally and fill out a customs form. In fact, when shipping something as potentially delicate and fragile as a watch I would make certain I packed the watch as securely as possible [from both physical damage and tamperage/theft] regardless if it was going across town or overseas. But that's how I would conduct my affairs.
All contracts implicitly require reasonableness, Contracts require the terms of the contract to be fulfilled to the best of each parties ability to do so in compliance with any applicable laws. If the terms agreed to by both parties are unreasonable, or if terms are not specifically spelt out [and I'm not a lawyer here so I'm thinking out loud, not as any sort of legal counsel], then that is a different manner. I'm sure there probably is legal precident for what you say though Scott.
The real sticking point is, and my German is probably worse than anyone here, as far as I can tell there were no terms stated for international transactions on the Ricardo.ch site listing. In addition, as best as I can tell, there was no idication that the item was even available for sale internationally in the Ricardo.ch listing. With that in mind, if Andy bid before asking "Will you ship to the UK? How much would that cost to me?" there is a loophole which the seller can slip out of as much as we dislike that. Which is pretty much what Ricardo.ch has stated is what they are limited to doing.
If one bids on an item that is not explicitly offered for international sale from outside the seller's country, one has put themself in a position where advantage can be taken of them.
and 25x shipping/handling charge is not reasonable, by any definition. That is not in dispute by me, nor Andy.
And that's my thoughts on the subject. Understood, Scott. I hope you understand where I am coming from, the position I'm in, and why.
I would like to hear the sellers side of this. I would like to hear Rolf's side of this.
I personally do not like being a party to this sort of incident. And since I am a moderator here at Chronocentric/OTD and Chronotools is part of that organization, and as a moderator I have input on the policies I am hence a party. And I will do what I can to get the policies in ChronoTrader updated with an eye towards minimizing this sort of thing happening again.
As it is, Chronocentric isn't in the Ricardo.ch or eBay.com watchdog position/business. However, if we can change the policies of Chronotrader to better protect participants, that is something we should do.
Scott Sincerely, |
