Hooo, easy cowboy ! ;) Posted By: Thomas Date: 6/3/05 19:18 GMT

In Response To: Re: The rules are the same for everyone… Bid as yo (Chicagoland Chuck Maddox)

Quite the response, seems I steered up a hornets nest.... I should not have forgotten to add some smileys, I guess ...

Eh, your call on that chief. However, one way or another people typically don't let incorrect or misleading posts stay unresponded to around these parts.

First of all, you are right about Ebay having no rule against sniping tools; as a matter of fact, Ebay officials explained in an interview they don't mind the use of them.

Not familiar with any interview, but I am familiar with eBay and eBay's user agreement.

That's what MY search brought up.....

A shame you choose to post such incorrect and misleading information. Doesn't exactly burnish one's reputation.

Then again, Ebay has never cared for their users interests, can't argue with that, can you ;) ?

Oh, I'm sure if I was of a mind to I could. I don't know that the current system is contrary to user's interests either. eBay certainly seems to be as popular now as it's always been. eBay seems to have as many auctions as ever, as many sellers as ever, as many bidders as ever. eBay's lead over the number 2...3...4...Nth competing auction site seems to be growing not shrinking.

eBay's purpose is to make money, to believe that isn't their mission is naive.

But , a well configured tool + a stable highspeed connection will in most, if not all cases give you an advantage over the average Joe, who doesn't care too much for nifty little computer programs.

Again, Highest placed bid trumps all every time it's at least one bid increment above all other bids placed and requires nothing more sophisticated than a browser capable of entering a bid on eBay.

The best "well-configured tool" and the most stable highest speed connection won't beat a higher bid, unless it's placed first and the higher bid isn't a full bid increment higher than it.

Are there advantages to using a specialized program to track/place bids? Yes, there is. Are there advantages to using a specialized service to track/place bids? Yes to that too.

However there are disadvantages to each too as I outlined in my last post, and even then one can prevail against users of either should they have the mind, wherewithal and money to do so.

My browser will add it's loading times to the bidding process, thus being no match at all for a lean little cheating program like an auction sniper, which also synchronizes to Ebay time.

That a specialized program would have less overhead than a generalized web browser is not at issue. One can (and many myself included) regularly synchronize their computer's clock to eBay or an official time standard manually. It's not terribly difficult to do and complaining that there are programs which do it automatically invokes a response from me of "So what!"...

That's something my browser doesn't,

Synchronize it's clock with eBay? It's that difficult to pull up the control panel to set it manually? It's that difficult to have the Computer automagically set it's clock to an authoritative time source as most modern OS's do?

Is it that difficult to have multiple browser windows up and (re)cycle through them? Improvise, adapt, overcome!

and how on earth will you place a bid exactly 8 seconds before the end of an auction like that ?

Good lord! I collect Chronographs for crying out loud! How about using a wristwatch?

If I don't have a watch that can keep accurate enough time for 10 or 15 minutes around the end of an auction, perhaps I need to invest in a timepiece that will!

Play it save with 20 seconds, even 12, and you don't stand a chance against that tool.

The closest I've ever placed a bid to the end of an auction was 2 seconds prior to close... It was done on a laptop, on battery power on a very flaky dial-up connection, blind because of that flaky dial-up connection based on what my wristwatch said and my best feeling of placing a bid. The bid was placed and I won... And sometimes luck comes in and lends a hand. In fact, that bid was placed before I had access to high-speed Internet access and using Microshaft Internet Exploder. In fact the only thing I miss from Internet Exploder is it's Auction Tracking features. I've had to develop a tracking scheme of my own since I've moved to modern browsers.

Most of my bids are placed between 10-12 seconds before the end of an auction, and I have a fairly successful winning percentage. But then again I bid to win, not to merely be competitive. The undeniable fact is that as long as you have a bid one bid increment higher than everyone else placed before the end of the auction you will win regardless of the method you or anyone else uses to place the bid, or when they place their bid(s).

Like I said, I do that cheat now myself, if those crappy sniping programs you can get for a mac work actually for a change (...)

As I have said, it isn't discussed, much less prohibited, by the user agreement so it's not a cheat. As for bidding programs, specifically on the Mac, the one I used for a while ceased being reliable some time ago. I've downloaded a few of the alternative programs, haven't really found anything to compel me to use any one of them thus far, all of them are lacking in some way or another. Wish the old program still worked, but I'm still doing ok with my current methods.

I still say that it is just that, a cheat, and it sucks,

As I said in my previous message, you are entitled to your opinion, however by the definition of the term "cheat" and eBay's User Agreement it's incorrect usage.

...and it doesn't seem to have deterred you from using the methods you condemn.

as not only does it give an unfair advantage to only some,

I don't see how it does. It is not like people are selectively excluded from using bidding programs or services.

it also changes the whole bidding process many times, when mainly 'pros' are involved in the run for 'most wanted' items like, well, collector's watches.

I signed up on eBay in 1997, I didn't have high-speed Internet access until about 30 months ago. I managed to be very competitive and win many many auctions prior to having high-speed Internet access.

It took me about 3 or 4 auctions, and probably not even that many, to realize that there were definite advantages to holding off on bidding until the last moments of an auction. If I can do that with my less than stellar IQ others should be able to figure out the same given a little time.

I did some homework in ebay related fora, off-ebay, that is, and there seems to me to be some common pattern .

When I was starting out on eBay there wasn't any off-eBay related fora. So I developed my methods myself in a near vacuum. However I doubt I'd be surprised at much which is presented at such sites, but I wouldn't know as I haven't visited any.

You offer that desirable thing, have some friends get the bids to a decent level until a few hours before the auction ends , and then rely on the snipers setting their tools well above the latest real bid to get the most money out of it.

Not sure what you're driving at here... I've never offered anything for sale on eBay. So I have no experience on the selling side of eBay.

The two or three watches I've offered for sale have been offered privately, not on eBay, not on sales corners, thus far.

That said, I don't have any use for shill bidding, but I've seen more than my share of it.

The above mentioned Joe has long been left behind at this point, even though that poor fellow, making his last bid a few minutes before closure, helps to make the tool users adjust their sniping bids even higher.

If you say so... This is the first time you've mentioned Joe in this post...

So everyone is being played, but the seller and ebay, laughing all the way to the bank. And prices for many items skyrocket, despite the less than great economic situation these days.

If prices are skyrocketing, it isn't because of snipers, sniping is a method of trying to keep attention, bidding and hence prices down...

If prices are skyrocketing it's because there is: a lower supply, b) greater demand, c) greater knowledge of the value of the items being bid upon, d) for overseas auctions... the weakness of the dollar with regards to the Euro, Pound, Aussie Dollar, Yen, etc. All of those factors have a far greater effect on bid's being placed than the presence or absence of sniping programs, services and snipers.

Well, I might have been carried a bit away here, but don't underestimate the influence of ebay on used market prices, among other things.

Absolutely... Were it not for eBay the values listed in Cooksley-Schuggart's Watch price book might be realistic.

eBay is a 24/7/365 flea market that never stops. Without it collecting watches would be far far more difficult, but perhaps somewhat less expensive. Many of us here, I dare say most of us, have built our collections via eBay or watches which have cycled through eBay at one time or another.

However, it's naive to believe that eBay is the only influence on market prices of any product. In watches, discussion forums, web sites like OnTheDash, articles on the web such as the one's I and others have written, books on collecting watches, magazines on watches all increase demand for vintage watches which force vintage watch values up. I merely believe that those influences are every bit as great if not greater influences than sniping programs/services. Then there are the economic forces: Supply, weaker dollar, etc. I outlined previously.

The "big-picture" truth is that all of our collections would be a shade of what they are without: eBay, watch information sites, watch discussion forums, watch trading forums, email, and the Internet. Were we collecting vintage watches with a circa 1985 Internet vs. a 2005 Internet our only venue's for seeing vintage watches would be estate sales, flea markets, Watch Collector meets and pawn shops. The Internet and all it entails has opened up everything.

And all those things manipulating ebay auctions play a big role, imho;

What you see as manipulation I and many others see as being savvy participants. As I've pointed out, there are far greater forces in the ending point of any given auction: supply, demand, presentation of goods, knowledge of the bidders, willingness to bid big on a desirable piece.

countless people made ebay cheating and fraud their hobby, if not their profession.

As do people on Yahoo Auctions, other electronic auctions, in-person auctions, casino and on-line gambling, etc.

However as I pointed out the tactic of waiting until the last moments of an auction to bid, or using a bidding program, or bidding service is not against the User Agreement, and hence not "cheating".

Alright, that said, I cheat , too, so I suck as well. Happy ?

What ever floats you boat T...

You cheat, you suck with me, so let's all just cheat and suck together ;-)))) .

Now this is getting into a real weird "South Park" tangent...

Also, Chuck, I understand you are using a Macintosh like me, what's your sniping program of choice ?

Back in the day (read OS 9) I used Auction Action Tracker, which morphed into Praeco under OS X. At some point within the past year or two Praeco became very unreliable in placing bids, so I have abandoned using it. In fact I haven't really shopped for a replacement for it yet. I've found that there are so few things I'm looking for, and there are so few items out there being offered that I'm not bidding anywhere near as much as I used to and I haven't needed the facility of a bidding program lately. I can't remember for sure, but I believe I've only purchased two or three watches this year via eBay. I've purchased a couple of new Citizens, a couple of vintage Heuers and one Bucherer from Gisbert Joseph, but they've been non-eBay private purchases.

So I don't have any recommendation for a Mac Bidding/Snipping program. Other than Praeco may still be adequate for tracking auctions for you, but I wouldn't rely upon it for placing bids.

Peace

...love, power to the people, Baby!

Thomas