Chuck,

You truly deserve your "expert" title, great post.

Ted
: I own 4 of the Orfina Porsche Design
: 5100's: 2 PVD Black 5100's, 2 Stainless
: Steel 5100's, and I also own a Orfina
: Porsche Design 7750. I also own 3 IWC
: Porsche Design chronographs (all of which
: use Valjoux 7750 based movements). I don't
: own any Eterna 7750's at this time. I
: haven't found one that interests me thus far
: at the right price. I've only been following
: the Porsche Design models for about 20 to 25
: years or so. I also have a body of work
: (click on the link in the footer of this
: post) that is freely available for public
: usage and scrutiny.

: It's a fair statement that I know what I'm
: talking about.

: but this watch is 100% original
: Absolutely and laughably incorrect.

: and the real article and not a redial at all!
: No one, and I mean NO ONE ever said it
: was a redial although that is certainly
: questionable...

: It may be a "real watch" but this
: watch is not genuine (Orfina, IWC or Eterna)
: Porsche Design chronograph.

: The ROTOR is not even a signed Orfina Porsche
: Design!

:

: Please note the serial number at top with 5100
: promenently next to it. Note the Orfina
: Watch Company inscription, and further
: comfirmation of the movement type on the
: rotor. ALL of these elements are missing
: from the Franken PD from Singapore.

: Here is the Black PVD Orfina Porsche Design
: that uses this movement:

:

: This is what Orfina made, not that other thing
: .

: If you check with Porche Design and get a
: reply from them that it has not made this
: watch before, then I accept your judgement
: but not from individuals who happens to be
: "Experts" in the field. If a
: dealer claims 100% originality it is his
: burden to prove that fact, not me nor the
: buyer's.

: Where is the providence for this piece? Where
: is the documentation that proves it to be
: 100% original?

: The seller's watch in question:

:

: IS NOT Orfina Porsche Design. Nor is it IWC
: or Eterna made Porsche Design because
: neither IWC or Eterna have ever used the
: Lemania 5100 (or 5012) movement in their
: watches. As far as that goes Orfina never
: used the 5012 movement, they used the 5100
: which is where the dial for this franken
: comes from.

: Here is the signed back from a genuine Orfina
: Porsche Design:

:

: Please note the pd logo, and Porsche Design
: enscription. I'm sure the seller will next
: impune that these markings can be faked.
: Well, the markings from my four 5100 Orfina
: Porsche Design's are consistant with one
: another and were purchased from four
: different individuals separated by
: geography.

: One can't have a 5012 with a 5100 dial unless
: someone has retrofit the parts to the
: movement to make it work, in other words,
: using the techniques of Dr. Frankenstein to
: make live something that was never made that
: way originally.

: When the seller claims “ this watch is 100%
: original and the real article and not a
: redial at all! ” it is his burden to
: explain all of the inconsistancies that have
: been brought up. If it's “ 100% original
: and the real article and not a redial ”
: prove it...

: He discussed the #5012 movement not being
: used as a 24 hour register but shows a
: totally different watch to the one I have.
: The Mistral Timing is not a totally
: different watch than the one this gentleman
: insists is a genuine original:

: Same case, same style pushers, same style
: crown, same style of plastic rotatable
: bezel, same plexi crystal., etc. I don't
: doubt that the 5012 data plate is original
: to the watch too. Just that Porsche Design
: had anything to do with this Frankenwatch.

: Obviously the watch he has is not the same as
: the one I offered for auction so where is
: the comparison. The comparision is
: between an original watch (the Mistral) and
: a franken watch (the one pictured in Reza's
: post... One is watch is genuine (Mistral),
: the other is Franken (the Singapore watch).

: And I'll give you a real easy to understand
: clue. The one that is original has a dial
: and a movement who's configuration that
: matches what Lemania produced, the one
: that doesn't is not and can not be
: original. It is really that simple.

: It's really difficult to provide a watch that
: is the exact same as the sellers example,
: because no firm has ever produced a model
: with such a mis-mash of parts.

: Look at the dial, it is so obvious that it is
: a 100% original dial and not some redial.
: No one said it was a redial!

: Look at the picture of the dial ( click here
: to open that graphic in a new window ) and
: scrutinize the dial and follow my narative
: in the next paragraph:

: No one said it was a redial! However if anyone
: with common sense looks at the dial and
: scrutinizes the luminious on the 5, 10 and
: 55 minute points you'll note that two of the
: luminous markers have been retouched (the
: one at 5 and 10 minutes) by hand, and the
: marker at 55 appears to be missing. Neither
: is consistant with style and manner of
: application notable on the other markers on
: the dial. Certain other of the markers look
: questionable as well. They have none of the
: consistancy one would expect from a Orfina,
: IWC or Eterna produced Porsche Design watch.

: Does this seller really really insist that
: this dial is 100% genuine original as from
: the factory? Who was on quality control that
: shift? Hmmm?

: I respect Chuck if he is the so-called expert
: but even I have not seen all the Rolexes in
: the world and I am suppose to be someone
: whom many people come to for
: "professional advise" on Rolexes.
: I'm certain I haven't seen all the
: Rolex's in the world either, but we aren't
: talking about Rolex either are we?

: I would have passed a comment like
: "watch is a model that i have not seen
: before so I cannot comment on
: authenticity". Fine. Then produce an
: ad, sales sheet, catalog or instruction
: manual from Orfina, IWC or Eterna (the only
: three firms to have ever produced Porsche
: Design watches) with this case/bezel
: configuration) showing this particular model
: of watch..

: I can't, I've never seen one, and I doubt that
: any firm that produced Porsche Design
: watches ever produced this combination of
: case, bezel, crystal, hands, dial, movement,
: rotor, case back. To my knowledge,
: experience and research none of the three
: firms ever did produce such a model.

: Chuck should base his comments after closer
: scrutiny of the dial, movement and case and
: not just from a picture. >>> Time
: Antiques. This dealer should base his
: comments on what is fact ...

: 1) the 5100 movement provides a 24-hour
: register at 12 o'clock on the dial.

: 2) the 5012 movement OMITS the 24-hour
: register at 12 o'clock that the 5100 has.

: 3) one can make a 5012 movement mimic a 5100 by
: canabalizing the parts from a 5100.

: A original (factory) watch can have an
: original 5100 movement or an original 5012
: movement, not a watch that has elements of
: both and still be original . It's laughable
: to think that any of the firms that made
: Porsche Design watches would produce a watch
: such as this one, or ship it. It's
: frustrating that people attempt to peddle as
: original, genuine and real something like
: this obvious kludge.

: I have nothing to gain or lose on the sale of
: this watch.

: The seller is obviously trying to sell
: something.

: Were it a genuine original watch, I have no
: problem with it.

: Were it a parts watch being sold as a parts
: watch, I have no problem.

: But in this case, this watch did not come from
: the factory in this form. When a seller
: claims 100% originality and genuine-ness
: from his product the burden of proof is
: on the seller , not the buyer or me
: . If it's a genuine piece, produce an ad, a
: sales brochure, catalog or instruction
: manual from a firm who made Porsche Design
: (Orfina, IWC and Eterna) that pictures this
: watch and confirms his story. I will say I
: was wrong if that sort of documentation
: can be produced and verified. I doubt that
: any such documentation can be produced.

: Sincerely,

: -- Chuck

: P.S. I have spent a significant amount of
: personal time and effort to express the
: basis of my comments. I expect genuine
: provenence from the seller not mearly
: denials and assertions in support of his
: statements. He says it's 100% genuine. Fine,
: produce documentation proving that. The ball
: is firmly in his court.

:

: Chuck Maddox

:

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